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Please post any comments or questions you have here.

Reply 0
rayjsmit

ops

Finally, I can see how my use of JMRI can help my ops.  Thanks for the info

Reply 0
engineer

Very interesting!

This does sound very interesting and I'll give it a try as soon as possible. I assume the setup will take some time ...

________________________________________________________________________

    [1]   

Somewhere Southwest at MRH: http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/21520
Modern monopole billboard in MRH: https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/modern-monopole-billboard-for-your-layout-13129796

Prototype Pics: https://somewhere-southwest.de/index.php/Prototype

Reply 0
RSeiler

I love JMRI Ops

I really like JMRI ops.  It is very comprehensive and you can't beat the price.  It is hard for me to understand why anyone would use anything else, especially if you're just getting started.  

 

Randy

Randy

Cincinnati West -  B&O/PC  Summer 1975

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/17997

Reply 0
ctxmf74

"hard for me to understand why anyone would use anything else"

probably because i takes a lot of work to set it up? Hand written switch lists can be very quick to make up and don't require as many parameters. All a switch list needs is the car number and where needs to go and the cars and locations can be changed at any time without needing to re-enter anything in a coumputer......DaveB

Reply 0
wp8thsub

Hard to see why anyone likes it, but that's me

This isn't a criticism of the article itself in any way, mind you, but...

I've run on layouts with JMRI ops, and find it frustrating and frankly annoying to use.  It wasn't set up by people who really understand how a railroad works, and lacks flexibility for yard operations that other systems provide with ease (like car cards or switchlists).  Like virtually all computerized model railroad operations schemes, it has a built-in obsession with putting cars into tracks instead of concerning itself with block integrity and train movement.

There are work-arounds for some of JMRI's limitations, such as having someone function as a clerk and update the records as trains come and go from yards so things can stay more or less current, but that doesn't overcome everything.

I know there are people who just love JMRI ops, but the reason for their enthusiasm escapes me.  Yeah, I'm a killjoy.  

Rob Spangler MRH Blog

Reply 0
engineer

Switchlist

For the moment I'm using the software "Switchlist" ( http://www.vasonabranch.com/railroad/switchlist.html) and am happy with it, but I will also try JMRI for this purpose.

________________________________________________________________________

    [1]   

Somewhere Southwest at MRH: http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/21520
Modern monopole billboard in MRH: https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/modern-monopole-billboard-for-your-layout-13129796

Prototype Pics: https://somewhere-southwest.de/index.php/Prototype

Reply 0
John Buckley roadglide

Switchlist isn't for everyone

Unfortunately its just for Mac.

John

COO, Johnstown & Maryville RR

 

Reply 0
SteveT

Great article, thanks!

Thanks for this well-done, step-by-step article.  This will be a big help to some of us who have not yet stepped into Operations on our own layouts.

Reply 0
RSeiler

Switch lists...

I can see where hand-written switch lists might be easier for a smaller layout.  It seems like it would get pretty labor-intensive to hand write lists for a larger layout though.  The time spent entering all the car information into JMRI is a little rough, but once its there you never have to write it again.   

I'm interested in hearing more regarding Rob's criticisms.  It would be really interesting if someone could compare a situation as it would be handled by JMRI Ops vs. how it would be handled by Car Cards or another system and point out the shortcomings of JMRI.  

Randy

Randy

Cincinnati West -  B&O/PC  Summer 1975

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/17997

Reply 0
wp8thsub

Re: Randy

Quote:

I'm interested in hearing more regarding Rob's criticisms.  It would be really interesting if someone could compare a situation as it would be handled by JMRI Ops vs. how it would be handled by Car Cards or another system and point out the shortcomings of JMRI.  

I'll try to make this coherent, but who knows how short I'll fall. 

Let's assume we're running a yard with car cards.  Every time a car shows up, you put the card with the others and automatically have a record of what's in the track.  If it makes sense to move the cars to another track to keep the yard fluid, no problem, just move the paperwork.  If you need to build a train at a particular point in the schedule, you grab the cars available for the required blocks.  Assuming you've done your job blocking them, they should all be in the right order and can be pulled all at once.

JMRI complicates all of the above.  First, unless you manually record every car showing up, you won't have a current inventory of each track in standing order unless somebody manually updates JMRI to record arrivals.  The reverse is true of every car removed from a track.  When I operate on a JMRI layout, I use the printouts to keep a hand-written switchlist of which cars are where and where they're going so I have current information at all times.

Second, given JMRI's insistence on sending cars into particular yard tracks, flexibility in shuffling blocks is greatly reduced.  JMRI will assume a particular block is supposed to be on a given track, and it instantly instills confusion for everybody if you move it, even if doing so would otherwise make sense due to traffic patterns and track capacities.  There isn't an easy way to propagate all that through the system and get everybody informed about the current status of the yard, but I suppose an alert yardmaster could handle it.  Since the existing printouts in the hands of the train crews would still show the old track assignments potential for confusion is increased.

Third, every time I see JMRI address a block to be picked up from a yard, invariably the cars to be picked up are not adjacent, and the yard must then cherry pick say 4 cars from a track of 10 to put in train XYZ.  JMRI doesn't maintain cars on a given track in standing order, and I've never figured out how to block everything so I can just pull say the first 4 cars and have them be the right ones.  There's always something to cherry pick instead of just pulling x number of cars from a block.

In the same vein, JMRI does not readily adapt to pulling cars from given blocks at a particular call time.  It doesn't "know" when cars get into a track unless manually updated, so you can't just say that train ABC pulls all cars for destination 1 and fills to 20 cars with destination 2 at 10:30 AM.  It's set up anticipating that certain cars will be in the track, and forces you to pull by car number instead of destination. If the anticipated cars aren't there due to delays in other trains or switch jobs, it creates a cascading impact on every destination down the line where the specific cars are expected.

In short, JMRI requires a lot of clerk work to be done during the session to keep records current, something car cards or a manual switchlist will do automatically. 

Rob Spangler MRH Blog

Reply 0
Babbo_Enzo

BUT: you can have the list of cars standing on each location or better on each track of each location. When you run a train, the list is updated automatically, so no need of any human operation, just ask for the list "after" a train is arrived to a location and you terminate it.

You only need to do a manual update when you move cars without run a train ( or run and terminate a switching job)

.....

Well, I agree, despite you can better define destination spots (or just special location in a track ) using schedules, in any case JMRI is not a "human" and can't react to timing-dependent accidents, it just plan in advance one train at time.

In fact you can create a block of cars that can't be broken, but I agree the setting is on "Car" screen and need to be done before run a train ( and presume you pre-set the block as a cars line).

Despite all these "defects", I've found JMRI useable in a "good enough" point of view for my purposes.

What I think is a good critic is what Dave Husmann have stated some time ago: JMRI is not "commodity focused" but is a "car forwarding" planner. And... it's a "Robot" so it depends on how you configure it and how the "internal logic" is planned ... but this last item can be enhanced providing good feedback to developers.

Not to defend JMRI, just take it as is: an "in progress" software development.

Cheers

Enzo Fortuna

 

Reply 0
wp8thsub

Re: Enzo

Good points, thanks for the input.

Quote:

When you run a train, the list is updated automatically, so no need of any human operation, just ask for the list "after" a train is arrived to a location and you terminate it.

That's a necessary clarification.  Of course whether the list thus generated is correct depends on whether the train arrived as anticipated with all its cars, and it's still not a given that the list will show the cars in standing order.

Quote:

What I think is a good critic is what Dave Husmann have stated some time ago...

I recall that also, and Dave gave a good rundown.  Maybe somebody can dig up the link or I can find it later if I have time.

Rob Spangler MRH Blog

Reply 0
ctxmf74

"labor-intensive to hand write lists for a larger layout?"

 

a larger layout just needs more guys writing switch lists. If everyone knows what needs to be done at their location then it's no problem. The reason I prefer hand written is I can pick whatever cars I want to run that session and set them on a staging track and be ready to run in a couple of minutes. It might help that I spent many years making survey field notes so working with pencil and paper seems easy to me..DaveB

Reply 0
RSeiler

Thanks, good discussion...

Thanks for that comparision.  I want to spend more time going over it.  I had a really busy weekend, and this is going to be a busy week, so it may be a while before I get to really read it and not just skim it but I wanted to say thanks for the time.  

Randy

Randy

Cincinnati West -  B&O/PC  Summer 1975

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/17997

Reply 0
David Husman dave1905

Switchlists

Let me start by saying that if you want a computer generated switchlist program, I would reccommend JMRI.  The price is right (FREE) and it works.  Any computer switchlist program that has any degree of sophistication will take time to set up and get working properly (although JMRI is easier and quicker than some).  Suprise!   Car cards & waybills also take time to set up and get working right.

I prefer CC&WB because from my point of view the concepts and the car handling, the decisions the yardmaster makes and how the yard flows is more prototypical with CC&WB than the list programs I have tried.  I know what a switch list and a train list look like and how they are used and most of the model switchlist programs I have seen don't facilitate the decision making, car handling and feel I want to capture.

Some people are very focused on the tactile aspect of switchlists, the conductor is holding a piece of paper so the operators should be holding a piece of paper, or feel they have to inject some form of "randomness" into the operation (suprise, real railroad operations aren't random and model operations are even less so) so use the computer as a tool to do accomplish that goal.  One reason I use CC&WB is specifically to limit "randomness".  I have a textile mill, it receives boxcars of cotton.  I want it to show up in southern road boxcars most of the time.  If I have the option of assigning that shipment to a NP, StLB&M or NYH&NH boxcar, I going to apply it to the Stumble Bum boxcar.  If I have an outbound gon of steel going via the B&O interchange and I have a choice of a P&R, PRR or B&O gon, I'm going to pick the B&O.  I want to model those decisions or movements.  I find it hard to do that with lists without putting up a lot of very restrictive rules. 

Personal preference on what aspect one is trying to optimize.

Dave Husman

Visit my website :  https://wnbranch.com/

Blog index:  Dave Husman Blog Index

Reply 0
nbeveridge

Computer vs. Manual Switch List vs. Car Cards vs. No Operation

Use what you like.  I don't want the labor of writing a switch list, nor the possibility of the human contriving the list.  I don't like handling car cards nor the repeated car routing of the way bills.  I do like JMRI.  I want car forwarding.  I care nothing about commodities or what other RR's are on the car's route. 

But ANY operation is better than NO operation.  So I say use what you like, and invite me to an operating session anyway!

Norman

Reply 0
ctxmf74

"I find it hard to do that with lists"

That's interesting as I find lists make it easier to assign cars to a plausible route. I can look at my car inventory and make a spot decision instead of programming in some scenario ahead of time. Of course most of the decisions are limited to detail and are not structural, for instance an industry needs 5 reefers so I choose from 10 PFE cars on my shelf based on which ones I feel like running that day. My switch lists are also short term and simple , limited to the cars that need to be moved then thrown away. They don't need car numbers unless there are duplicate reporting marks going to different locations. ( 5 reefers can usually be switched as a block for instance unless one or more are going to the SP and the others to the ATSF). Here's a list from a test operation of the west end tracks of my new layout. The top cars came in on SP interchange, the next group came in on ATSF interchange,and the last group are the cars that were at the industries when work started. As they were worked they got crossed off. IIRC it took about an hour to work that list running at a relaxed pace..DaveBopps2(1).jpg 

Reply 0
nbeveridge

JMRI Version

No one picked up on the version recommended in the article?  The current production version is 3.4, which is very much advanced from the recommended version 2.1.

Norman

Reply 0
Nedbrause

Great Article!

Very helpful article.  It walked me through the process without any glitches.  It's a great alternative to car card and waybill operation.

Ned Brause
ATSF
Halstead Kansas
Reply 0
John Buckley roadglide

JMRI equipment

Corrcct me if I am wrong, please, but don't you need the JMRI program and the connection to your layout to use the switchlist feature?? The equipment costs, what, a hundred bucks or so? Can I use the JMRI program without the rest?

John

John

COO, Johnstown & Maryville RR

 

Reply 0
wp8thsub

Equipment

Quote:

...don't you need the JMRI program and the connection to your layout to use the switchlist feature??

The computer running JMRI doesn't need to be connected to the layout to use the ops features.  You can use the ops portion without employing any of the decoder programming or signaling functions. 

Rob Spangler MRH Blog

Reply 0
RSeiler

No equipment needed at ALL...

Not only do you not need to hook your computer up to your layout, you don't even need a layout!  

I've been doing JMRI Ops on my layout plan.  Its a great way to see how your future railroad will run.  I have my track plan in XTrkCAD.  I am entering all of my information into JMRI Ops, then I build trains and preview the switchlists, and use them to run the trains in XTrkCAD.  Its a great learning tool, both for JMRI and the layout plan itself.  It does take some time, and if my layout room were available I'd probably be down there building benchwork, but if you can't get to actual construction right away this is a great way to test your plans and have some fun "operating" your "layout" at the same time.  

Randy

Randy

Cincinnati West -  B&O/PC  Summer 1975

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/17997

Reply 0
engineer

AAR-Codes in JMRI

Is there an easy comprehensible list which describes the cars to the AAR codes used in JMRI?

________________________________________________________________________

    [1]   

Somewhere Southwest at MRH: http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/21520
Modern monopole billboard in MRH: https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/modern-monopole-billboard-for-your-layout-13129796

Prototype Pics: https://somewhere-southwest.de/index.php/Prototype

Reply 0
PeterU

Car description

Using JMRI, you have a choice of AAR codes or car description. You can also add your own.

http://www.jmri.org/help/en/package/jmri/jmrit/operations/Operations.shtml#Settings

Car Types

The program has two sets of car types for you to use. Descriptive provides type names like "Boxcar" and "Tankcar", and AAR provides type names like "XM" and "T" for boxcars and tank cars respectively. Select the one that you prefer. You can add or delete car types by using the car type edit window.

Peter Ulvestad

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