MRH

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Reply 1
DrJolS

Current capacity of cables

Very useful article.Question: the Miniatronics web page warns against using the pin/cable connectors to power rolling stock, but it says that it's OK to use them for sound. This leaves me wondering about using the connectors for my locos. I'm inclined to believe your article and use the cable anyway (decoder in the tender); what can happen other than the wires in the cable get fried? Similar question for the TCS micro cable - 32 gauge wire seems awful tiny. Also, I don't much like the 4- or 6- wire flat cable because it looks different than the prototype. Has anybody done much with running wires between loco and tender in the positions of water hoses? I'm inclined to try this with black wires and micro couplings under the forward corners of the tender.

Reply 0
wgibson

This was a very timely

This was a very timely article for me - I am about to start this process with a Samhongsa model of Santa Fe 1226. Thanks much for the guidance.

Reply 0
rgneds

Great how to

This article was great.  Explains so many helpful hints on how and where to install decoders and sound.  This will be my go-to source for converting locos to DCC.

Reply 0
Joe Brugger

Thanks

This is the kind of article that helps to get old steam engines off the shelf and into operation. I have an old LMB Mike that has a very smoothly operating drive train, but the original open frame motor. Had not considered the issue of the brushes arcing.

Reply 0
locoi1sa

Open frame motors & DCC

    I have installed and running several Loksound Select decoders in brass steamers with super tuned open frame motors and have had no issues with arching. You have to replace the iron magnet with Neodium (super magnets) magnets. I also make sure that both brushes are insulated. After this the amp draw is comparable to a can motor but the low end torque is incredible.

  The Bowser DC71 motor with the skewed armature turns into a very powerful motor using super magnets.

      Pete

Reply 0
Geared

Perfect Timing

Perfect timing, as the elf grapevine (ebay) indicates that a CP Pacific Pike ten wheeler is coming my way for Christmas. 

I will be following the guidelines laid out by Craig Symington from The Ridgeway Shops for this specific locomotive, but the tips outlined in this article are going to go a long way towards making the installation of a sound decoder successful.

Thanks for a great article.

Roy

Geared is the way to tight radii and steep grades. Ghost River Rwy. "The Wet Coast Loggers"

 

Reply 0
RF an O Ry

Wire gauge

Loved the article and, although my budget  precludes the purchase of brass, the techniques and tips seem to apply to my cast locos. My question is this; what is a safe gauge for wiring in an HO engine with a can motor (assuming smooth running mechanicals)?

Reply 0
RGB600V

Current capacity of cables

The 4-pin Miniatronics cable mentioned in the article has been proven OK-- I've installed a couple dozen of them & never had any problems other than a couple wires not soldered "from the factory". Bear in mind that the current capacity of a Tsunami is one amp, & if you use a decent can motor that doesn't arc & spark, you shouldn't draw anywhere near an amp. I've also installed several of the 6-pin cable from TCS & even "draped" them down like curving water & air hoses. Most were used on a big club layout with long periods of running, I know the people & there has been no cases of overheating. Still, keeping them plugged as much as you can will keep the pins tight & avoid loose connections which CAN lead to overheating & melted insulation.

Bob Battles

Reply 0
locoi1sa

Micro connectors.

   I have used the Miniatronics connectors in the past I currently use the 6 pin JST harness for tender - loco interface. http://www.traintekllc.com/TCS-Train-Control-Systems-1309-6-Pin-JST-In-Line-Connector/productinfo/TCS-1309/

     It also comes in black.

          Pete

Reply 0
ray schofield

Bob   I think there is a

Bob

I think there is a lot of great information here, but I would always put the decoder in the tender if possible and add weight to the engine if possible. Brass steamers are noted for lack of pulling power, so weight in the loco is critical. IMHO. 

Reply 0
rpjasin

Hard wiring is bad practice??!!

Bob,  Great article thanks for contributing, but I must differ with you on hard wiring the engine and tender .Bad practice and shoddy workmanship?  This is simply not true.  I'd say its a matter of personable preference.  I rarely use a plug between the engine and tender, or for that matter an A and B unit diesel.  I never run these models individually, and hate those connectors getting in the way and making the installation more difficult. In addition, the lack of the connector enhances the reliability as well, Nothing to come loose, less shrink wrap and solder joints.

 

Bob J

Reply 0
Benny

...

Hardwire is in general bad practice with LRUs [Line Replaceable Units]...when you have your lights in the shell and your motor in the chassis, and you take it a part, the wires rip out or lead to an increase in damage to components you're not working on that can't be simply removed and then placed in a safe place until the work is done.

And the idea that once you are finished, you will never remove the shell again is a folly.  Chances are, you will remove the shell at least one more time.

--------------------------------------------------------

Benny's Index or Somewhere Chasing Rabbits

Reply 0
RichardStern

Disagree

I disagree with several of the practices in this article.  This is based on 30 years with DCC and predecessor CTC32 command control and over 50 sound and motor decoder installs in brass engines

1. After dropping the frame into the boiler and securing the screws, it is very bad practice to test the engine by putting it on the layout and applying power.  If you have crimped a wire to the point the insulation is broken, or pulled a solder joint loose, you may have shorted the decoder.  This runs the risk of seriously damaging it when full power is applied.  I believe it's best whenever testing a new install (or, for that matter, any time the engine is disassembled) to put the engine on the program track and try to read one of the CVs.  If you get a good read the decoder is safe. 

2.  Also, IMHO it's better to set the engine number on the program track.  This prevents the possibility of inadvertently programming other locomotives. 

3.  Using the “wireless” draw bar to conduct power is a good way to be VERY frustrated later on.  It is just not a reliable connection and will eventually cause intermittent open circuits.  Even with DC, I always bypass this with a wire. 

4.  Brass engines (of any size but the largest) need more pickup than just the drivers on one side and the tender on the other.  I always add pickup wipers to at least four of the insulated tender wheels and at least two of the insulated drivers. 

5.  I agree with the comment made by Ray that brass engines need all the boiler weight they can get.  Also, I often put in a larger capacitor to reduce sound “reboots”.  (I'm looking forward to trying TCS' "keep alive" circuit on some of my smaller brass engines).  Trying to stuff all of that into the boiler of a small brassie means a lot of weight must be removed.  This means mounting the decoder in the tender along with the speaker. 

All of this means you’ll need a multi-wire plug between engine and tender.  (I often add separate number board lights and driver synch cams, which adds even more wires).  TCS makes some very nice connectors, with up to nine wires.  Soundtraxx has a clever 9-pin connector with a socket that can be mounted under the cab/tender deck, just like a factory install. And there is old standby Miniatronics with up to 6-pin connectors. 

Reply 0
locoi1sa

Plastic vs Brass.

     The five brass locomotives I own all have sound decoders and headlights. They ended up less expensive to buy and put decoders in than the more modern plastic versions (if there is one) with a sound decoder. A good example is the factory painted brass Sunset I1sa that I scored on E-bay for $120 + $9 shipping. A loksound Select decoder and large oval speaker $80. Total $209. Plastic I1sa from BLI is $300+. This also gives me the opportunity to disassemble it and fine tune the drive train. The brass version runs better, pulls more, and sounds as good as the expensive plastic version. 

    If the decoder does not have a plug I will use the 6 pin JST harness like I posted earlier. It is easier to maintain if the tender is not permanent.

        Pete 

Reply 0
docdenny34

Good article, Questionable Practices

Hello;

I do appreciate very much the focus that this article is likely to engender, bringing attention to many of those modelers who have caches of fine operating brass steam locomotives; but are also like deer caught in the headlights contemplating conversion to DCC. I also like very much the care that the author takes with his wiring, shaming me to improve some of my own less-than-perfect wiring habits.

At the same time, however, I do disagree with some of practices prescribed; and in this regard, I also agree with Richard Stern's thoughtful critique.

My own bona fides are that of the conversion to my own DCC/DCC-Sound operation standards of about 20 of my own cache of brass steam locomotives over the past 15 years (since 1999). These same locomotives seem to substantiate my own practices by operating routinely, mechanically-silent,  and reliably for many years on my own layout while at the same time pulling substantially near-prototype, or even prototype-length trains.

1) Boiler weight: Space for added engine weight trumps space for a decoder. Sacrificing any boiler weight for decoder space is counterproductive, and in my experience is unnecessary, and almost never required. These locomotives need every bit of OEM weight that they already have, plus much more (another subject). In a majority of instances, the decoders can fit above the motors  or drive line -especially round can motors-, either on a simple brass armature, or a torque arm. "Micro" decoders can commonly be dropped into the space between the frame halves beneath the motor. A few decoders can fit behind the smoke box door in front of the weight, where the space cannot be used for added weight because of balance problems.  Only after these three primary potential spaces have been ruled out, is the tender chosen.

2) Painted locomotives: Although I have had some considerable distressing experience installing sound decoders and otherwise, in some critically-painted premium locomotives, I would not in any way recommend it as a routine practice. Despite one's best efforts, too much -way too much- handling damage can and will occur, and often too much important gets left undone in the fear of doing yet more damage. My own best practice is install, AND then both bench and track test the unpainted locomotive and tender with everything required -decoder install, lighting, wiring, added pickups, motor replacement, new driveline, etc. Only after being satisfied with the test results will I then carefully take it all down (or mask it when feasible), and lay it out to await its reinstall after painting. This sounds tedious, and sometimes it is- but the neat results absolutely pay the bill.

3)  Pick-ups: As alluded to in another good comment, a good decoder install can be utterly frustrated without the addition of additional electrical track pickups. As reported, a practical goal is to add pickups to the left-handed tender wheels and the right handed locomotive drive wheels. I have gotten away on a few by just adding pickups to the driving wheels- not ideal, but expedient. A good ready-to-install pickup for this use is the Grandt Line #7005.

4) Hard-wiring everything is an easy practice, is expedient,  is reliable, and saves a lot of work. However, all of these good practices are as nothing as to the handling damage, frustration, and irritation that results when servicing and repairs are necessary, when parts that commonly need to be taken apart, simply cannot. IC  wire connectors and some of the new TCS and Soundtraxx connectors can be challenging at times to install and keep out of the way, but the time, effort, and acquired skills to do so seem well worth the effort.

5) I agree that open frame motors -as a general rule- can safely and very commonly used with most decoders; and I and others have been doing so for many years. Reasons to keep them: they are original, operate smoothly, silently and well, and draw less than 1 amp slipping with full weighted locomotive. A surprising number of these motors meet these parameters. Reasons to replace them with modern can motors: slip current draw 1 amp or above, poor operation, excessive noise, excessive RPMs, loss of magnetism (common in many early Japanese Pittman motor copies, and some early Sagami can motors using permag magnets), and the occupying of excessive space best freed-up for the new decoder. Sadly, a lot of the currently-ubiquitous flat can motors occupy about the same space, placing a premium on the smaller true round can motors still in inventory.  

Added note: the higher stall (vs. operating or slip) current of some, if not most open-frame motors, is not a de facto deterrent for decoder install: the late Don Crano (Digitrax List) a true DCC wizard and great teacher, pointed out authoritatively in 2002 that true stall current situations- to the point of failure- were almost never to be realized, especially with modern decoders. Personally, though, I am still very cautionary with sound decoders in this regard, but I do also keep an open mind.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Denny S. Anspach, MD

Reply 0
Ed Eaglehouse Suncat2000

Thorough and thought-provoking

 

Thanks for a well- done treatment of what seems a touchy subject. I cannot see myself ready for brass anytime soon, but it made me more contemplative of how much more sensitive metal models are to wiring mistakes compared to the ubiquitous plastics that we're used to today. This kind of article hopefully will make me more careful of doing a neat and professional job and, in the long run, happier with a better quality outcome.

-- Ed

 

 

Ed Eaglehouse
Reply 0
locoi1sa

Brass vs plastic.

    Ed.

 Don't discount all brass locomotives as expensive and out of reach. My brass had turned out a lot less expensive than comparable (if available) plastic and even Bowser cast zinc. I constantly peruse Ebay brass and watch closely the prices and bid accordingly. The 0-6-0 B6sb $99., 2-6-0 F3 for $110, The 4-6-2 K5s for $120, The 2-8-0 H8sb for $110 and the 2-10-0 I1sa for $129. The only one not painted was the K5s and it was a great project for me to do it up. I had just swapped out the Loksound Select decoder that was in the I1sa with a TCS WOW decoder. All of them run as good or better than the plastic steamers I run. My brass I1sa will pull as many cars as my Bowser I1s will. Bowser steamer kits on Ebay are out of sight. The last Bowser I1s kit went for over $200 without the super detail kit too.

     Keep watch and maybe something will turn up for you.

             Pete

Reply 0
MikeHughes
For the life of me I cannot find this issue.  I've looked in the MRH TOC, Index, advanced search on the author, etc.  If it had the month and year on the cover page it would be a lot easier.  I thought I would see what I could find on here before I go to far with the Samhongsa Selkirk.
Reply 0
Mustangok
Mike,
 
It's in MRH Dec 2013.

Kent B

Reply 0
MikeHughes
Thanks Kent.  I was looking backwards from Nov since the first post was in November. Its weird it doesn’t show up in search in the index.
Reply 1
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