Interesting position but I

Interesting position but I thought a bit ambiguous. If one is not interested in serious operation one would be doing either display type running or collecting and maybe building. I would think most folks would have things running in some fashion even if not into operations, which if true would be just like watching their own trains run. If they are switching cars to industries they are operating just by themselves.

I think everyone would like to watch the trains, the folks that show up at train shows prove that, even non modelers watch the trains.

Boy Scouts

From an old Scout's campfire song:

"Commercial, commercial, commercial;

A terrible death to die, a terrible death to die,

Heigh Ho the Dario, a terrible death to die"

The last couple of "Reverse Runnings" have been rather nice...all polite and reasonable. I really prefer it when these articles take a more contrarian tone, such as assuming that anyone who isn't into operation is completely missing the point of the hobby.

Perhaps I need to see a therapist?

David Stewart

reverse running

Cab rides, I enjoy looking at other modellers track work,structures and scenery, If you can mix an op session with a cab ride,that would be an enjoyable video. Just don't shake the camera and run 65 mph.

Dennis Southeast Georgia Free-mo

To quote a movie which will

To quote a movie which will get watched this time of year: "A crummy commercial? Son of a b&%$#!"

Not really

To be honest, I'm not losing any sleep over whether or not people are buying any Ops Live videos. I only mention them as a resource for those who ARE interested in ops and would like help better understanding what a prototype ops session looks like if they've never seen one.

Beyond that product mention, this RR's goal was not to sell product - it was to say if you're not into ops, then fine, but you may be missing a lot of fun and maybe it's time for a second look?

Watching and running

Some people will try and read too much in to any article! End of....

Over here we don't really get much opportunity for large scale ops sessions, so it is always interesting to see how others do it. Last week a couple of us were invited over to see a fellow NMRA members layout. He has started to get in to operations, and we had a rather laid back session, even though it did last over 4 hours. Now, whilst I did run a couple of local freights, it was also interesting just to sit back and watch a couple of the others running trains. Its all part of the learning process, the more variety I can get, then the more I can try out and see what I like.

Brian

A different slant....

Yes, I know the article was aimed at getting people to try operations but....

One thing I really enjoy doing is watching other people operate my layout. From newbies to old hands, it is always interesting to see how they do things and I have significantly refined my approach from this observation. It also means I'm contemplating a minor track change to ease part of the operating burden and make one of my op rules more relevant.

Stand back and watch some else let the trains run; it's amazing what you learn.

The most fun I every had in

The most fun I every had in model railroading was watching the guys from our operating group operate on my old Richlawn Railroad!  I only had the one operating session, but I have sweet memories of it.  I'll be doing operations on my new smaller railroad as railfanning on a layout with 72 feet of track will get boring fast.

Never ceases to amaze.

Although I like to operate I often end up and enjoy being the observer. Watching other friends run trains never ceases to amaze me. I never fail to notice something or learn something that makes me a better molder and human being. All too often there is a plethora of ideas and actions I can directly or indirectly translate into how I want  the Chaffee Branch to run, or think I want it to run. Watching my friends and acquaintances operate is all too often a delight. If nothing but to see the joy they get from operating. You can also learn about yourself; that at times is quite revealing. All in all it is much like a sports team or a friendly game of cards (As Joe eludes too) and how well people play with each other and sometimes not so well with each other. I find videos of operations intresting and their never the same as is no two layouts are the same. Each has its own qualities to glean from. Then there are people that would rather watch paint dry or grass grow than watch an operations video of a model railroad, each to his own. 

   However, I always walk away a better modler and thats always worth it.

L.L.D.

I'm not buying it ...

November... Christmas around the corner ... hmmm ....

I do enjoy watching real trains.  Also enjoy the occasional video of real trains.  Models?  I prefer to see them in person.  And of course 'playing' with them is more fun that watching another play with them.

But, on the other hand ...

This certainly is something that I could relate to ... watching others play with my trains ...

Why must you..

impugn Joe's integrity at every corner Dave.  It is insulting and I for one am sick of it!

Ken L

Well ...

... perhaps that is something that you will have to solve for yourself.

I was not the first to make that comment.  Nor was I the second.  Sometimes the truth hurts.

Purpose of the Reverse Running column

Joe, correct me if I'm wrong here, but the reason for the Reverse Running subject was because of the following.

You received a nasty note from an MRH subscriber that thought it absolutely absurd for someone to actually spend money to watch other people run trains (Allagash Ops. Live video). As a matter of fact, the guy went so far as to insist you NOT reply to his rant. This coming from a guy who gets MRH FREE month after month.

This rant begged the question if others felt this way too. Since the Ops. Live video is about my Allagash Railway, naturally I'm interested what people's interest level is for something like this. We put a ton of work into doing this thing. Major preparations ahead of time, logistics, and then Joe had to put the whole thing together. It is not a trivial thing and was a major effort all around.

As far as your comments are concerned Dave, even IF the Reverse Running column's intent was to promote discussion of the Ops. Live video, and perhaps encourage sales along the way, what's the problem with that? You get MRH free and clear every month, month after month and year after year.

What's the problem?

Mike Confalone

Mike beat me to it

I don't understand why it would be a problem to discuss products that are for sale in a column like Reverse Running.  Should we also not do any first look articles?  Those are clearly advertising products.  What about scratchbuilding articles that have a list of products that were used at the end of it?  Or the weathering articles that talk about the products used to weather a boxcar?  Or is the underlying problem that the publisher of the magazine is potentially promoting one of his own products?

In any case, I don't see a problem.  The RR column is about taking a contrary view to what might be the norm, and while admittedly this column was one of the most benign in this regard, I didn't get the impression Joe was shilling for the Ops Videos, he was merely pointing out that these are available for those who have interest in them, just like a scratchbuilding article will talk about Plastruct or Evergreen's styrene product availability if you are interested in building something similar.  

But even if he wrote the RR column specifically to promote the Ops Live videos, it doesn't bother me a bit.  If Joe doesn't make a living at this effort, MRH won't last for the long term, and that would be a shame.  

No problem ...

... never indicated that there was a problem with the RR article.  Two others before me pointed out the "commercial" aspect of the article.  My only comment was that I'm not buying it, which seems to have created a problem for a few others here (which is not my problem ...).

And no, I was not the one who sent Joe an eMail ranting about Live Ops Videos.  Why should I care what other people purchase?

As to the specific Ops Live on the Allagash Railway; from all indications it is quite popular ...  I don't think you should worry so much about it.  No, I have not seen it; probably never will ... just not my cup of tea; but I am certain that there are plenty of folks who enjoy model railroad videos ... and those are the folks that you have to satisfy.

...

Sometimes, you have to give an honest opinion of  things, even if it is not popular with the group.  Last month I made the comment that I thought there was too much white space in one of the articles; giving it an "unfinished" look.  Lots of folks took issue with that comment ... one even made the claim that the "more white space the better!"  (Guess they like looking at a blank screen?)  Anyways, this month ... the white space is under control, the magazine looks finished and professional, 

watching someone else run trains

Setting aside the debate over whether the publisher of a free magazine should be permitted to use said magazine to promote other products ...

The original question was whether there is any point in watching someone else run trains. Personally, I don't mind watching videos of real trains (one step removed from the real thing) or watching models of real trains (one step removed from the real thing) but videos of model trains (two steps removed from the real thing) don't hold my attention for very long. Most videos of model railroad operation feature unrealistic speeds and the few that are realistic quickly become boring. (Disclaimer - I have never seen any MRH Trainmasters videos and therefore I cannot comment on them).

For me, video has a very poor information-to-time ratio. I absolutely detest watching training videos where it can take 10 minutes of video to convey something that could have been explained in a few paragraphs of text. So for learning about operations, I would prefer to read articles in the magazine, or a thread like Questions about Prototype Operation.

[edit]: all that said, I did watch Mark Dance's Wayfreight Video on the Columbia & Western in its entirety - but that was purely for entertainment (WOW), not to learn about operations.

[another edit]: Just realized that my sig contains a link to my website, which contains ... a video of model trains ... featuring ... unrealistic speeds. Sheesh this is embarrassing ...

Are the people who don't like

Are the people who don't like to see other people running model trains the same people who like to see other people swing a club, drive a car, throw a ball, swing a bat, and so on?

Charles

Can't speak for anyone else,

Can't speak for anyone else, but I'm of the opinion that professional sporting events (like all "reality" TV) are "fixed" or at least somewhat contrived, so ... no.

The real problem

The problem I have is that you are basically calling Joe a liar. He said that the intention wasn't to sell product. By saying "you don't buy that", is calling into question his authenticity and morality. That's a problem for me for sure. 

Oh, how I wish....

That like with Facebook we could mark posts here "I don't want to see this" so they would disappear.  I specifically talking about some people (no names) that seem to have a sour disposition and go on and on and on and..............

Easiest thing in the world to

Easiest thing in the world to not worry about the posters who like to think their way is the only way or that like to call attention to themselves or just to argue at every point, when one reads or begins to read their post you just skip it and go to the next. One individual on here became enough of an annoyance to me that I do not open anything that I see he started.

I will toss out something not from this web site that might be a hot button with some but makes an excellent point regarding watching train videos. The info is based on the number of folks that have watched Arthur Houston's videos. He has an unbelievable number of hits on his videos and that would indicate to me that lots of people like to watch train videos. Even the video I made which is boring unless you like long trains has had lots of folks look at it, even then it might still be boring.

We have had guys start what could escalate into flame wars easily by what could be called baiting by some with regards to many topics from how many cars you own to how long is your train to anything else even car weight got heated at one time. I have my opinions on subjects and have found they work to allow me to accomplish what I want from the hobby, your goals may be different and so the things that work for you might be as well. I am not going to tell you that you can't enjoy the hobby that way, if it makes you happy enjoy yourself.

Yep, it's not a sterile world

Ramblings..... Rant-free

Although the Rev Running topic is aimed at learning something about operating principles, I can echo the post "several back" there he enjoyed watching others operating his RR, which points out operating capability, that is, can this RR even be "operated". 

I too have thoroughly enjoyed watching the operators, albeit, at first, I was frantically trying to fix tons of little problems to keep the operators operating.

Once the layout was reasonably bullet-proof, it was fun to watch people figure out how to switch this or that mine or industry.  I had to keep in mind that I have been building and planning for several years, so what is painfully obvious to me is often painfully obscure to the new operator.  All of my operating crew appreciate realistic slow speed operation - that's a plus!

Mike reported on the vast amount of work that went into producing the video, and I think to myself, I wonder how many test runs and changes occurred to get to what it is now.

I don't know how you would convey such learnings in a video, unless you were to film the test runs of early sessions, and then the upgraded session highlighting improvements.  I know I have some significant bottlenecks that I hadn't intended, and which will likely need to be fixed soon before they become too frustrating.  But they seem to become apparent more readily when I watch others working than when I am operating lone-wolf.

My mistake

If my quotation of a boy scout ditty was taken as condemnatory, then I blew it. I always took that little song as a hyperbolic satire of the silliness of complaining about commercials ( it seems obvious to me that being subjected to a commercial is not "a terrible death to die").

And so to register that, this time, the Reverse Running column read a bit like a plug for Live Ops videos, I quoted the song, thinking that ha, ha, I am simultaneously making fun of my observation...as in, so what if it does? Not for the first time, my sterling wit failed in its delivery.

I certainly regret if this led to anyone perceiving a slight therein to anyone's character, intentions or integrity. Mea culpa and my apologies.

David Stewart