Atlas, at this time,  lists

Atlas, at this time,  lists it's code 83 flex at $5.75 MSRP.  Prices  for flex track on the web are all over the place.

With the price of oil and wages going up in China, not surprising it affects flex track also.

Marc

Glad I bought it when I did

I bought 3 cases of code 100 several years ago when it was $1.68 per section. I don't know if I'll ever use it all but I'm glad I have it.

Prices vary...

Standard Hobby Supply lists Atlas code 83 flex at 100/$309.00

I think by the length it is $3.49

$5.75 sounds a bit high by comparison.

The price of track

It's not just the cost of oil and labor that drives the cost of track. The fact is that track isn't purchased that often. So like lots of other stuff the price is going to be all over the place.

I am using code 80 flex track on my N-Scale layout. Why? Because I bought a box of 100 30" sections of that back in the mid 1980s and I still have most of the box. I also have equipment that balks at code 55 so I am not about to change right now. Besdies that I still have the track from old scrapped layout that is still good or was left over and never used.

If I buy anything, it will most likely be turnouts since i know i do not have enough for the new layout. Exactly how many ne turnouts I'll need will depend on the what the final layout calls for. I have not finished that trackplan yet.

Irv

Just got your email Charlie...

I used the contact form to reply.  If for some reason you don't receive it let me know and I'll post here or try to send again.

At nearly $2/ft you may as

At nearly $2/ft you may as well go with Central Valley tie strips and Micro Engineering rail in HO.  CV has different tie spacing for different track and ME rail looks the best so you get much better detail for the same price.

Paul Mack

My t houghts exactly ...

Paul:

My thoughts exactly ... as the price of regular flex track goes up, those self-gauging Centr Valley ties stips are looking better and better.

The CV tie strips have nice spikehead and tie plate detail, so it will photograph nicely in railfan eye level view.

Now if they'd just make the stuff in a scale besides HO for modelers in other scales ...

Hand laying track in N-Scale

I've heard talk about handlaying track from practically the first day I was in the hobby. I've seen hand laid track and while it looks nice but it doesn't always look convincing. However, in my opinion, doing it N-Scale or smaller is probably harder than in the larger scales especially when you consider the kind of tolerances required. Thus, I don't intend to handlay any of my track.

The cost of building a layout was never cheap and it hasn't changed. What has changed is that the number of people in this hobby is way down and it isn't just because young people aren't getting involved. People just don't have the time , nor the finances to do it these days.

Irv

The only thing constant is change ...

I hear the "hobby is dying" claim every so now and then - and it's often tied to the declining circulation of the hobby magazines.

Then there's this news story from 2007 (and similar news stories since 2005) that says the hobby's on the rise again.

Add to that the fact that a European publisher last year started a free downloadable magazine on prototype railroads around the globe - Railway Herald Worldwide ... they're now on issue 4 and scrambling to handle the million or so hits their web site is getting!

Worldwide, rail travel is on the upswing, with the Chunnel Train now booking more passenger miles between London and Paris than the airlines. The US is looking into high speed rail service to various cities around the country. Freight railroads are booming, and the amount of railroad mileage in the US is on the increase again as more track is being laid.

I personally believe model trains as a toy was a fad in the 50s and early 60s. The response we're seeing now is more typical non-fad behavior and represents a genuine interest.

Then there's demographics to keep in mind. The Baby Boomers (1946 - 1965) were a huge generation, and many of them are entering retirement and will be looking for a good creative hobby that rekindles the joys of their youth. Model railroading is a great candidate for this.

Next comes Gen X (1966 - 1985), a generation far smaller than the Baby Boomers. If you do nothing different, all product sales to Gen X will be much smaller than to the boomers just because a smaller customer base buys less (marketing 101).

The interesting twist is Gen Y, coming up next (now back to 1986). Gen Y has greatly surpassed the Baby Boomers in size. Most of Gen Y is not yet old enough to buy a lot of model train stuff, but again using sheer numbers you would expect the sales of model trains to be up just because there are more kids again. And hey, guess what? That's exactly what we see.

I think one of the best things that can happen to the hobby would be for high quality hobby media to be made available over the internet completely free. Then when the youngsters discover it, they'll get the bug and we've got another model railroader!

One approach to pull in the tech savvy Gen Y'ers would be to have a totally free rich media magazine for the hobby, for instance. Even the kids could download and read it. Now there's an idea ... < wink>

Cost of the hobby

I certainly am not going to blame Atlas for raising their prices - after all, inflation and rising prices are a fact that every company has to deal with and we can't expect them to be the one company that holds the line while all their prices go up.

But I have felt for some time that all this emphasis on giant, ultimately detailed layouts in our hobby is very discouraging to the new people coming in to the hobby.  Very few people feel they have the cash to devote to such an endevour and I wonder how many get discouraged by the cost of the huge total for all the track, turnouts, locos and cars needed to fill a basement.  However, if you operate on someone else's layout or join a modular club, build dioramas and such, then you can enjoy the hobby for very little.  If you build craftsman kits then the cost per hour comes out quite low and you learn a lot from the process.  Even better you can scratchbuild and save lots of money.  But every issue of MR feautures yet another multi year mega-buck layout that makes one feel that is the standard to which we should all aspire.  It seems the goal of this hobby is to get into Great Model Railroads 20xx.  Sure you can build one of those "starter" layouts or "newbie" layouts but will you show it to your friends with a name like that?   (And those cover pictures with 1950's Dad and his totally uncool son make me want to *bleep*).  Of course we all know those small layouts can be MORE fun than the big ones - they might even operate all night without a hitch - but the goal of MR seems to be to get you to spend money on expensive locomotives for your giant layout.

By the way, I think the web will be the salvation of this hobby.  A great online mag, like this one is going to be, will do wonders for bringing in more people to the hobby.  I am excited at the prospect of being able to "google" that article I read on some subject.  I have hundreds of old MR's and RMC's on my shelves and I can remember there was a great article on just the thing I want to do, but heaven help me if I can lay my hands on it!  It amazes me that MR wants me to pay more for one pdf file of old reprints on their website than they charge for an entire print issue!

Better get off my soapbox before I embarrass myself too much

Yeah, the hobby can be kind

Yeah, the hobby can be kind of expensive (if you let it get out of control it can be REALLY expensive). Thank God for modules and clubs (or modular clubs). And again for the art of scratch building - it's possible to get many, many hobby hours out of a few bucks when you don't buy anything you can build.

Instead of buying a new Mustang, buy a smaller, more fuel efficient vehicle, and the cost difference easily pays for a medium size layout. I think my wife is glad (financially) I got back into model trains instead of getting a private pilots license or buying a sailboat...

Have you noticed how the ads on TV are designed to get you to feel you *have* to have something you don't really need? Sometimes it seems like hobby magazine articles do the same thing. Instead of buying everything in sight, stop and think what's really needed to achieve your current goal - whether it's filling a basement or finishing that paper mill module. Don't let the media dictate what it takes for you to be happy (and that applies both inside and outside of our hobby)

btw. please don't tell my LHS owner I posted this...

Regards,

Charlie

There are ways to minimize the cost..

Some aspects of things going up have more to do with inflation and the weak dollar then anything else.  I noticed this rather dramatically with the Peco track I had been using which is of British manufacture, but it holds true of a lot of US manufacturers who build in China too.

Still, I think there is a tendency in this hobby toward "easy off the shelf" products repackaged for model railroading. For intance, a little bottle of "scenery cement" costing far more then a large bottle of matte medium at the craft shop. I think that the hobby press is somewhat guilty of this since more and more the articles are about using off the shelf products without suggesting scroungable alternatives. Relating this to track.. more an dmore products with integrated roadbed are coming out.

Even hand laying track. There are more and more products out to make it easier, like the fast tracks jigs, but they do so at a higher cost. I am not knocking products like this, but there is a tendency to start to think this is how it has to be done rather then "this is something you can use to help if you can afford it..". I am going to try to teach myself to do it without jigs using some old articles I have about building on top of printouts and such.

I have to do everything I can to keep costs down.. so I clip coupons for discount craft stores, look for articles on making things inexpensively, search for alternat suppliers, and generally apply Yankee Frugality to everything I do on the layout. Model Railroading costs money.. no doubt.. but it doesn't have to cost as much as it seems at times.

Sorry.. didnt mean to get on the soap box..

Chris

Cost of the Hobby

I don't think the actual cost of the basics and especially of engines or rolling stock are bad at all.  If you use what the government refers to as "constant 1975 dollars" which was about 3.5 in the mid-nineties, you end up with inflation and devaluation adjusted price for things that often doesn't even keep up with the 1975 figure.  I've read posts complaining about the price of some steam or diesel engine that has both sound and DCC and wondered when these folks got into the hobby and what they thought was reasonable.  I have a few steamers that people would been insanely happy to have at any price back in the seventies when I started and yet if you consider the overall changes in the value of money, those engines are more than reasonably priced.   I see something like the Bachmann Spectrum line of engines, either those with sound and DCC or those not so equipped, and I see very detailed engines that I don't find too many complaints about (and have personally had no trouble with) and I they're exactly what people used to complain about not having available.  While a Bachmann 2-6-6-2 may not match your particular prototype, I remember well when people were sick over there being nothing other than Rivarossi steam available and nothing at all available that ran as well as the Spectrum series does.  I point out that product line only as one example.  The same could be said of several other product lines of both steam and diesel engines.  Rolling stock has increased in price even less by comparison and as a rule is closer to what craftsman kits used to be than to production run products not that long ago.  All in all, the costs themselves are very reasonable IMHO, and I say that in spite of being of a modest fixed income.

The biggest thing I see is the same thing Duncan points out.  The hobby media (magazines, websites, shows, whatever you want to call the movers and shakers) is focused almost exclusively on the "dream" layout end of the spectrum as "dream layout" was defined not too many years ago.  Duncan makes a good point about the MRR pdf files as well.  That may seem like a little thing, but it's a great insight into what at least one influential force in the hobby thinks the average modeler has as a budget.  While it used to be common to find articles and track plans for layouts intended for a spare room or a double garage, those types of layouts are now considered to be stepping stones at best.  That orientation has led to several folks I know having their ideal plan, shelf after shelf, of rolling stock and structure kits, and dozens of engines, all stored for when they can get started on their real layout while they have sufficient room to have a nice layout, albeit a much smaller one, right now.  Maybe I'm the one in the dark and they're really hording stuff to sell at a tidy profit on EBay one of these days, but they sure hide it well with a mass of plans and designs for their ultimate layout.   I think the web can be the salvation of our hobby, and I hope it is.  It could also lead a huge wave of something like buyer’s remorse (hobby selection remorse?) as people realize they're going to have to settle for less and find nothing supportive available to help them downsize their goals.  I hope not, but then again, I hoped the web would retain the courtesy Usenet used to have and just add visual interest and hyperlink ease of use.  IOW, I am guilty of optimistic hopes.

Recently there have been several things (this online magazine being one of them) that are super encouraging and seem to be not started only for profit, but started to for the enjoyment of the hobby and the enjoyment of sharing.  I’ve also started running into various fragmenting forces and feuds that lead to paranoia and misunderstanding when anyone strays even a bit from the group norm.  I hope the hobby group norm hasn't moved to the extreme of any layout other than a very large one being considered unworthy of "serious modelers" attention.  There have always been and always will be little groups that argue over the "best" in one category or another and given the expansion of our hobby there are more folks like that than there used to be.  At the moment, however, there seems to be so much support for one category of layout and one way of judging whether a layout has merit that we could end up turning away the current and future growth Joe explains so well.

Regards

ME

But those fasttracks jigs

But those fasttracks jigs look nice, no??!

Look nice, yes, but...

You can't go wrong with shiny metal.  It must be worth it if it is shiny, right?  I think after seeing one of the jigs in person, it is somewhat limiting and maybe a bit over-rated.  I have handlaid track before, in fact the first piece I did was a curved turnout for a club I used to belong to in Idaho.  It worked great and I used a piece of flextrack and a pencil to lay it out.  I think the jig could be limiting because without knowing the mechanics of laying track, turnouts in particular, you will only be able to do it one way, what comes out of the jig and not able to adapt it to specific needs.   I think they would work best for someone who knows what they are doing and needs a whole bunch of the same thing.  And that is my 2¢, subject to change by maybe actually using one instead of imagining using one.

Paul

Fasttracks jigs

The do look good. However once you lookat the prices for those jigs you have to realize that unless you are going to building alot of turnouts or whatever you are buying the jig for, that it is a very expensive proposition. And depending on the kind of flex track you may like, you could easily buy a box of flex track for the same money as you would pay for a single jig.

Irv

About Fast Tracks jigs and cost

I hear a lot about the cost of things like the Fast Track jigs.

I have to ask, how much is ultra-reliable, maintenance free trackwork worth?

While you can build reliable turnouts without the Fast Track jigs, the Fast Track jigs make it possible for the "average" modeler with little experience building turnouts to crank out consistently reliable turnouts over and over (with a little practice).

I've seen studies done in the hobby press of commercial turnouts, and no commercial turnout meets the NMRA specs for turnouts completely. They all have some "slop", presumably to make the turnouts more "forgiving".

The NMRA specs are designed to tightly control the wheel path through a turnout to make the tracking highly reliable and repeatable. By adding slop, instead of making the turnout more forgiving, you actually make the tracking through the turnout less predictable - and the result? More derailments and more shorts at turnouts.

On any model railroad, 90+ percent of your derailments and shorts will be at turnouts. The most expensive part of your trackwork is a turnout, and the most complex part of your trackwork wiring is turnout wiring considerations. And most of your trackwork maintenance is turnouts.

What something like the Fast Tracks jigs give you is the ability to crank out very reliable turnouts that are precisely to NMRA specs in record time over and over and over. And because of the way these turnouts are constructed (if you follow the Fast Tracks construction guidelines) you also get a DCC friendly turnout that will have minimal shorts when something ever does go on the ground (which will be rare with these turnouts unless the wheelsets are out of gauge or are riding at a canted angle to the railhead).

And because of the way these turnouts are constructed, you will have minimal maintenance issues with these turnouts.

As to the cost factor, it's true you need several instances of a given turnout number to make the Fast Tracks jigs economical. However, it's not as many turnouts as you may think.

A turnout kit, including the rail, from Fast Tracks for an HO code 83 #6 turnout is just over $200. A very nice code 83 turnout that's one of the closer ones to NMRA spec is a Peco code 83 turnout - and those sell for around $20 street price. This means if you need 10 turnouts of this size, the Fast Tracks approach costs about the same.

For HO there are also alternatives. I use the Fast Tracks point and Frog filing jigs, but I use the Central Valley Turnout ties as a sort of a poor man's jig ($4 each) since they have in gauge rail slots right in the ties. I describe my entire "poor man's jig" process here, complete with step-by-step photos.

But in scales outside HO (O, S, N, and Z) or in the narrow gauges, the Fast Tracks jigs are about the only game in town unless you want to build the jig yourself. I would say that building your own turnout jig is a more advanced skill than just buying and using a Fast Tracks jig. The Fast Tracks guys have done all the hard work for you already - they've computed all the dimensions down to the thousandth of an inch.

As you can tell, I'm a big fan of the Fast Tracks jigs. If highly reliable and headache free operation is a priority for you and you're willing to spend a little time learning how to solder and file rail, the Fast Tracks jigs are an excellent layout investment you'll never regret.
 

Standard Hobby Supply

I took a chance and ordered a box of Atlas Code 83 flex (100 pcs) from Standard Hobby Supply.

The price was $309 + $18 shipping (iirc about the shipping).

They shipped 3 days after I ordered going UPS ground (since we're both in the continental USA) and the box arrived two days ago full of Atlas Code 83 flex track.

Given the present prices for Atlas I figure they most have ordered a box car of the stuff before the previous price increase and that lets them sell it at a profit for what now seems like a real bargain.

I can't speak to the problems expressed by modelers from Austrailia or Canada who were frustrated with shipping issues, but at least for me, this time they did ok. I did call before ordering on the internet to confirm they did have the stuff in stock. They answered the phone promptly and it took only a short while to confirm it was in stock.

Cheers,

Charlie Comstock

And Fasstracks DOES have a

And Fasstracks DOES have a Cheaper Wood version of their jigs...for the record...its an interesting concept.

I'm looking into the tie plate templates myself - not for switches, but to use as templates on my workbench - lay it down, hit it with spraypay, its on the bench!

Standard Hobby

Charlie, I am very happy to hear your order from S.H.S. went well.  I have always been happy with the service and price from S.H.S.  That being said.  I do make sure to tell ANY company or seller that I deal with in the US to NOT USE UPS to ship to me in Canada!

I may be mistaken but I think it is S.H.S's policy to ship USPS to Canada anyway.  USPS has always worked just fine for me!  THe US mail ROCKS when compared to Canada Post!

I'm sure the UPS service is passable within the US but their policy of applying ridiculous brokerage fees have cost them in dollars and reputation outside of the US, IMO.

I guess I was right on the money when I said it was a case of sour grapes...

Fast Tracks Jigs

Its tough having to buy a jig for each frog and rail weight. It would be cool if they made at least a "flippy" that has #6 on one side and #8 on the other.. or #5 and #7 etc. Then, with one expense, you get a jig that handles most of your needs. I am going to assume they dont do things this way for a reason other then selling more jigs. I have also noticed that some of their ancillary supplies seem expensive. For instance, rail nippers at $16 that are much cheaper elsewhere. I got mine at a LHS for $13. They are online for $11. Small money but it adds up. I am looking for a non hobby source of the pcboard to cut up. Clover house has a nice price but has a $20 min order and I can't really afford that just for the pc ties right now. I have already been exploring what I can save on wood ties. I bought a bag of 1000 on sale for $5, and have bought some stock basswood that seems the right size to cut up for longer sizes. Of course, doing all this makes me want a NWSL chopper II.. more expense.. Maybe I can make my own chopper.

Folks were hand laying turnouts for a long time before fast tracks came along.. I just hope that I can do so as it will greatly ease what potentially is the largest cost for me over the first couple of years of building my next layout. I think if I was building a monster basement layout that a jig for 6 and 8 would be a no-brainer.. but then presumably I would have the money to build a monster layout and the cost is relatively trivial.

Chris

PS - not knocking the company.. heard nothing but good things about them.. just questioning the economics of their products and marketing for some of us on the low end of the hobby budget scale. I am grateful they make nice templates available and are a source for some hard to find things.

Taint necessarily so

Irv:

I hear the "hobby participation is way down" urban myth a lot, and it mostly comes from the decrease in the circulation of the hobby magazines.

Recently, I spoke with a modeler who has recently retired from the NMRA board, and I asked him what the NMRA sees as participation in the hobby - and he said the NMRA regularly sees surveys done by the various major hobby vendors. Hobby participation is flat or slightly increasing - but it's definitely not shrinking, according to these surveys.

He said age also matters. Most members of the hobby are male, and typically guys are introduced to the hobby from 8-12, and they do what the can with limited resources until they reach 20, at which time they drop out of the hobby to focus on schooling, spinning up a career, and starting a family.

Most return to the hobby in their 30s or 40s, once the kids are older and the career is established. They then continue in the hobby through retirement, building one or more layouts and spending much more on the hobby.

This age profile plays into what we're seeing right now. Baby boomers were born from 1945 - 1965, and are in their early 40s to early 60s and back in the hobby - and they started returning to the hobby mostly in the 70s and 80s, trickling off into the 90s. So this age group will have been creating hobby growth in the last 20-30 years.

Next comes Gen X, a far smaller generation than the Baby boomers, and they're currently in their early 20s to early 40s. If you couple the tiny size of Gen X with the fact they're currently in the time when most people drop out of the hobby, then this group will have been dropping out of the hobby in the last 20 years, but will be reentering the hobby in the next 20 years. Since Gen X is so small, their exit from the hobby will have caused the numbers to drop slightly over the last 20 years, and they will be causing the hobby ranks to grow slowly over the next 20 years.

Finally, there's Gen Y, currently aged zero to their early 20s. Gen Y is way larger than the Boomers, and studies show their parents and grand parents lavish them with stuff - so Gen Y is used to conspicuous consumption. In the teen years, most modelers don't buy a lot of stuff - but Gen Y's parents/grandparents do buy lots of stuff for their kids/grandkids. We should see an uptick model trains for this group - and that's exactly what we're seeing. If you check out news services like Reuters, you will see they've been reporting an increase in model train sales in the holiday season since 2005.

Gen Y, however, will be leaving the hobby also as they move into their 20s over the next 20 years - so they will add very little to the hobby until 20 years from now when this massive generation that's larger than the boomers returns to the hobby.

So putting this all together, what should we be seeing?

Boomers coming back into the hobby (big generation, more modelers entering the hobby since 1970s) + Gen X (tiny generation, more modelers leaving the hobby since the 90s, will be staring to come back in next 20 years) + Gen Y (huge generation, parents are lavishing them with goodies, but they will be leaving the hobby over next 20 years) so we have:

Moderate hobby growth in the 70s and 80s, tapering off in the 90s, going flat in the first decade of the 2000s, slowly starting to increase from 2005 and into the 2010s, and then taking off with record hobby growth again in the mid 2020s and beyond as the massive Gen Y returns to the hobby.