"Welcome to the World's

"Welcome to the World's Greatest Hobby!"

Hmm, Expert????

Well, I am no expert and even if I was I would not claim the title of expert.  My father always defined expert in this way.

X is the unknown quantity and a spurt is a drip under pressure.

My answer would be to tell the fledgling modeler that he won't be sorry he got involved with Model Railroading! Then I would have to ask him lots of questions before giving him any further advice.  You have to get a sense of a fellows givens and druthers before you can try to point him in the right direction, IMO.

Givens are things like the space, time and budget available for the hobby.

Druthers are the things one want's to include in the finished layout.  For my son, a fledgling modeler himself, the druthers are a turntable and roundhouse in his yard.

Probably the first thing I would try to determine is a feasible scale based on the modelers givens.

A really neat concept.  I hope to see some actual experts chime in here.

Barfly at the hobby shop...

...well, not anymore, since the owner of the good hobby shop near me retired and shut the place down.

I think I'd start by asking questions intended to determine what scale might be most appropriate - for instance, is this a father/son type project and how much room is available? Also, are the trains going to be running on the carpet or on a table - or are they starting with benchwork?

Then I would work to keep them away from the non-Spectrum Bachmann & non-P2K Lifelike stuff - don't want them to get disgusted with the hobby on that stuff before they get a proper start, after all. Of course, if I owned the hobby shop, I wouldn't have that sort of thing!

If HO seemed most appropriate, I'd probably introduce them to Atlas's "Trainman" series of equipment - economical, excellent quality, and easily supports upgrading (it's DCC ready) in the future. They even have boxed train sets if that seems most appropriate. Same with "O" scale, as well. I'm not up on what is available for N Scale (I think Atlas has extended the Trainman line to it as well)... and I don't think I'd want to recommend Z scale for someone just starting out.

Then I'd lead them over to the bookshelf... and have them climb on the computer (yes, I'd have a computer) and subscribe here!

So should the new guy get a train set or not?

Okay, so the new guy asks if he should get a train set to get started. And your answer is ... ?

Train Set

"That's one way of doing it - how much were you looking to spend, and what sort of surface will this be used on?"

...and then take him over to the Atlas Trainman trainset display....

Not all train sets are created equal.

I'd be very careful about

I'd be very careful about launching into a discussion of givens and druthers (John Armstrong style). Asking what prototype do you want to model and what are the measurements of you layout room can be very intimidating to someone with no hobby experience other than having seen a modular layout on display at the local mall.

I think it might be better to gently sound the guy (or gal) out on what got them started thinking about trains, what experience (if any) they've had with model trains, and do they have any goals in mind (like spending parent/child time working on a project together).

Only if they were showing signs of train knowledge and/or more serious interest would I lead them to the road of givens, druthers, and serious track planning.

Otherwise, it might be time to tell 'em about any local club activity and gently suggest some sort of train set (not the junk varieties). Oh yeah, ask if they have an internet connection at home and give them the url for this site.

But truth be told, it's been so long since my first ventures into model railroad land I dunno if I have any identification with the problems this person is dealing with anymore...

Regards,

Charlie Comstock

Today's train sets

My impression is that today's train sets, as long as you get beyond $100, are pretty decent. If a person wants to get something up and running fast, a quality train set could be a fast way to get started in a minimal way.

A key question to get out of the way early is "what scale?"

If the guy's in a hobby shop, it's easy to just show him some sizes, comment briefly on which scales have the most variety and their relative cost, and then ask him which he prefers. If he's undecided then I'd ask him if he likes watching train run or if he like lots of detailed models.

If he likes watching trains run, then I'd show him N and HO and ask which he likes better ... for the record, I would generally not recommend Z scale to rank beginners.

If he likes lots of detailed models, then I'd show him HO, O, and G. I'd also mention G is more for outdoors garden railroading, while O and HO are indoors.

If he can't decide, then I'd point him at HO, since that's the scale with the most variety.

Question...

Next question?

Would everyone agree the scale question needs to be dealt with early in the conversation? However, their preferred scale needs to be settled based upon size and modeling preferences other than the "how much space" question in the early stages.

I don't think it's wise to encourage a rank beginner to go build a basement filling layout right away. That's a huge project for someone with no hobby experience. Job 1 is to get them some experience in the hobby and to help them make an informed decision on what scale they are likely to prefer.

Then with some experience under their belt, later we can maybe start talking about a larger layout project.

Okay, with the scale question out of the way, what is the next thing we should ask them?

Amount of room versus geeting started

Interesting. Most of us started in HO and then switched scales. I did when i discovered that an two bedroom garden apartment wasn't big enough to comfortably house a 4 x 8 layout, a wife and small child.  THen I read about MRs Clinchfield N-Scale project and decided to try N-Scale. I bought an N-Scale train set and played with that for a while and discovered I could lots more with it then I ever could with HO.

When I became a home owner in 1982, I reserved a 12 foot 3 inch  by 16 foot room in the basement for my N-Scae layout. Now I am building a new layout. I still have most of my HO stuff in a box. One of these days that's going to find it's way to ebay.

Irv

Large layouts and beginners

Someone who has just walked into a hobby shop for the first time thinking trains would be cool should under NO circumstances design and build a large - 400+ sqft model railroad. It will become a huge timesink. And it almost certain that with the passage of a couple of years what ever got built will no longer be satisfying and either they'll be looking at a major tear down or what was built will become a major dust collector.

Ok, ok, I'm sure someone somewhere has a friend that knew someone that started big 20 years ago and still loves it. So I'm sorry. Really.

But starting small, hanging out with as many other model rail heads as possible, taking every opportunity to visit other layouts (and especially to operate on them), looking at clubs, reading magazines (yes even print ones), looking at track plans, hanging out track side (without getting arrested!), will lead someone to a much better understanding of what they like about trains which will lead to a much better understanding of what, if anything, should get built in that large avaiable space.

Now if  'just walked into a hobby shop' describes you, please don't get frustrated. Go ahead and build something (anything in fact). You can have a LOT of fun doing it. You can make a bunch of new friends. And you'll learn a lot about what it takes to build a large layout so that at some point when the time is right you'll know what you're doing.

Best regards,

Charlie Comstock

Scale maybe not important at start..

I dont think scale is something someone needs to wrestle with right off. If you steer them to start small, whatever they choose won't matter much in the long run. They can build a small layout in HO and by the time they are done they will have an idea of how much railroad they want, how much space they have to fit it in, and how small they can tolerate their trains being. Personally, my favorite scale just from the appeal of the size, is S. Guess its from playing with my Dad's American Flyers. However, my space and operating goals command N..

I am also not a fan of the train set approach. I think people will enjoy their layout more if they go ala carte and have a hand in picking out each piece of equipment that appeals to them. If money is not an issue.. this could even lead to starting with a DCC system and never having to backtrack out of DC later.

Personally, I get a lot out of reading books about the hobby.. so someone who is inclined that way would be well steered toward some good books and perhaps a magazine or two. Dave Frary's Scenery book. Perhaps the Wescott benchwork book. Koester's operations book not only shows the game behind the machinery, but provides a nice track plan for operating.. Anyone of a number of project layout compilations that are out that show a layout being built from soup to nuts. I don't think everyone has quite as much a research oriented approach to things as I do, so I dont think this would be the right thing to do for everyone.

Chris

An engine, some cars, a loop

An engine, some cars, a loop of track, a powerpack, a switch or two, my business card and a friendly suggestion:  come on back soon and often, we have more where that all came from!

From there on out it is a simply matter of good salesmanship to keep the guy in the hobby.

Pique his tastes, tickle his tastebuds, feed him a little, show him a route, feed him more, and when he's had enough, show him something else.

The above comment are all

The above comment are all good.  I used to work at a train store and this would happen all the time.  Often I would steer them to the stacks of used magazines and tell them you can never read or learn too much about the hobby and railroads in general.  On the way to the magazines I would point out the seclection of Athearn sets and tell them of the 50 "finished" locomotives I have, 40 of them are Athearn or at least Athearn drives.  I would also show them the Walthers catalogs for each scale.  The N&Z catalog on top of the O&G catalog was still a quarter inch thinner than the HO catalog.  I would tell them it is a hobby where you can do whatever you want and get into it as much as you want.  You can have a circle of track around your Christmas tree or you can build a historically correct basement empire run like a real railroad.  

I prefer to avoid scale until

Some of those who are new to

Some of those who are new to modeling, that I know, already know what scale they like, they just don't know what its actually called! They had seen it either at a show or in a Mall or some shop window. Its then they need pointing in the direction of what to get. Best to start small and let them find their way round.

Unfortunately, I'm not much help in the way I started out, other than Dad having a 6' x 3' baseboard and a range of Hornby Dublo stock, which we just added to over the (more than I care to remember) years!

Brian

More thoughts...

You know...let them get a couple lower quality units first.  They may suck to all of us, but if they start withthe worst, they have somewhere to go when they discover Atlas or Kato engines.  If they start with atlas and kato, its all downhill[disappointment] from there.

I say let them at the salad bar and be there to swipe their card and let them swipe your mind as they go out - by that, I mean, let them impart on you their ideas and where they are thinking about going.  Don't mold - becasue they will figure their shape out on their own.

If it doesn't work out, don't fret.  Out of ever 100 kids who ever started, 99 quit.  So if 10 adults start and 9 quit, that's STILL a win for the good guys!

Hello, I am new to this site

Hello,

I am new to this site and was wondering about On30 as an option. Any thoughts?

Thanks

who is this beginner?

I wouldn't TELL the beginner what to do.  I'd be curious and inquire about his background (previous modeling experience, maturity, etc.), what he likes about or wants from the hobby, how stable is his residence situation is, and so on.  Such knowledge would shape the extent and content of my advice.  (Hey, the guy might not welcome any advice.)

I would relate to him my own particular experiences.  If I thought it might save the beginner future grief to not start a large layout, I'd tell him how my interests and hobby goals changed rapidly, especially in the early years.  How layouts came and went or were heavily modified quickly and how glad I was I didn't attempt large layouts so that my investment of time and money were less than they might have otherwise been.  I would tell him that the more I learned about real railroads, the better my modeling and the greater my interest.

I would steer the beginner toward the modeling how-to books as well as books on a particular railroad or type of railroad he was most interested.

come to think of it

Come to think of it, Paul Mallery's book OPERATION HANDBOOK FOR MODEL RAILROADS by Carstens Publications is a wonderful source of information for railroad modelers.  Great benefit relative to cost!  I dare anyone to dispute this.

On30

I have seen some great On30 layouts though publication, but never in person.

My impression is its a great way to model larger scales in a smaller space. You can have interesting operation while still doing finely detailed, larger models. I think the only thing you lose is scenery is relatively smaller.. that is.. a scene that is 2 feet deep is going to be that much more shallow in On30.

Still, I think if the whole "narrow gauge" thing appeals to you, and you like the benefits of a larger scale, then it is a fantastic way to go.

Chris

What is the motivation?

New Guy here!!!

I would probably ask the individual what he wants to do in the hobby ... Run trains?, Build models?, Collect?

I would then try and determine what the impetus for him starting would be ... Remembering his youthful trains?,  Looking to spend time with a Son or Grandson?, Get away from everyday stress?

Understanding these goals, then the advice could be more suitable to the situation. You folks have pretty much covered the universe of solutions. Making the individual feel welcome and comfortable in the shop is important, as an initial trip to a Hobby Shop can be intimidating.

Maybe spending some time at a local club could help direct or inform the individual as to his options.

I'm hoping that the motivation is to spend more quality time with a family member, but then I'm biased. It really doesn't matter if they want to run Big Boys or Thomas, as long as it's fun and rewarding.

By the way, thanks for letting me be part of this Forum.

LenS

You're welcome, LenS

Welcome aboard, LenS!

The more the merrier, I always say ... < grin>

The most important thing

I wouldn't suggest that the newbie go on local tours, operate on area model railroads, or anything like that. I've known more than one person who has done that, and after seeing a couple of big layouts, proclaimed "There's too much you have to do!" and walk away. Nor would I suggest he join a club, unless s/he seems unusually sociable.

I'd try to answer their questions.

I would suggest that s/he find a friend whose interests seem similar to theirs and who isn't a complete newbie, if possible - and I'd try to help them do that.

I'd encourage them give themselves time to allow their own interests to emerge and mature, and to not be afraid to change the direction of their modeling as their preferences develop and change.

Most importantly, I'd emphasize that they model railroad how they want to, and not how somone else tells them they should.