Modge-Podge

Intriguing idea, Scott. I've always thought of Modge-Podge as cheap, but essentially, acrylic matte medium.

Perhaps an acrylic matte medium paste would work?

Would Modge-Podge soften later when ballast is glued down? Or once cured is it impervious to moisture? If the latter is the case, it's worth an experiment on a piece of scrap wood and some old flextrack.

Water resistant

Thanks, Paul.

I think a test is in order. Mod Podge makes a water resistant version called Outdoor Mod Podge. 

I didn’t realize how many versions are available. 

I've been using PVA for individual ties

It has a pretty long working time, and remains relatively flexible, which I believe is a good idea for sound purposes.

Cheers,

Rene'

Fixative for track

Scott

I have laid several hundred feet of CV tie track using LIQUID NAILS FOR PROJECTS AND FOAMBOARD.  It is not always available in the big box hardwares, but Ace Hardware stores stock it.

Jeff Fry

will Tennessee Pas fit in my basement?

Jeff

And I'd think that product has decent working time before it begins setting for good. I've used it for other purposes on layouts, not track though. Hmm, something to consider next time.

A good idea from Jeff, Scott!

Thanks, Jeff

Just read about Liquid Nails and it has a working time of 30 minutes. 

Sounds very promising. Time to go to Ace and proceed with a test. Thanks!

Mod Podge test positive

I  tested the Outdoor Mod Podge tonight and it didn’t disappoint.

I spread a relatively thin layer on homasote and laid down a CVT strip. The strip was easily workable which is important to me because when I lay the strips for real I want to be able to fine-tune for exact position (caulk was not as cooperative). I weighted the strip down, came back about 45 minutes later and it is TIGHTLY bound to the homasote. You can see in the picture below that some of the Mod Podge isn’t even fully cured. 

 

Mod Podge easily outperformed caulk in both workability and strength of bond. I’m going to let it fully cure for about  72 hours per the label’s instructions and then test it for moisture penetration. Since it’s an outdoor formula I presume it will pass the moisture test which will make it safe for ballasting. 

This is what I was hoping for – a product that’s initially workable, bonds solidly, and provides the added bonus of sealing the homasote roadbed. 

Looking forward to the final

*Moving* is a relative term

Thanks Paul.

I’ve been working on the layout’s 45 foot backdrop which is taking up a lot of time. I recently traveled to Milan to photograph the required areas and am slowly stitching them together in Photoshop. I wasn’t happy with the cloud cover on the day I photographed so I’ve been shooting skies around my hometown when the clouds are in good form.

Needless to say, the process of adding the skies to the Milan landforms is time consuming. Plus, I have the dreaded disease of perfectionism which can slow a guy down because I fuss over details too much. I’m just hopeful that when I finally get all the backdrops output that I won’t freeze with apprehension before attempting to wallpaper them into place. The output will be expensive and I don’t want to screw it up. But if I can successfully get everything wallpapered into place it should make the layout room come alive. That’ll be cool!

Below is a sample of the backdrop that will be behind the Andalusia runaround area (as you can see, still under digital construction): 

 

Anyway, when I need a break from the backdrop work I’ve been slowly testing my track construction options. Hopefully I’ll start track construction soon. 

Mod Podge final results

I tested the cured outdoor Mod Podge for moisture penetration today and it passed with good results. 

Below are three photos in sequence taken during the test:

 

First photo shows the amount of water I applied. More than enough.

 

Second photo shows water evaporation after about 4 hours. The ties are solidly adhered to the homasote although a few were a little spongy when I pushed on the ends. Nothing major, and I attribute the sponginess to the water getting under the Mod Podge and into the homasote. 

 

Third photo shows the water evaporated. You can see where the original Mod Podge was applied. As time elapsed the water did take on a very slight white murky look although the bond between the homasote and Mod Podge was solid throughout. 

I’m very pleased with how Mod Podge performed and plan to move ahead using this process for laying the CVT ties. The minor sponginess will be eliminated when I fully coat the homasote roadbed.

Experimenting with a new

Experimenting with a new adhesive type sounds a little risky to me since only time will tell how it holds up. I think it is better to get the ties right (or very close) the first time before gluing it down. To do that I place two rails in the tie strip, held with a few weights. My track is code 55, 60, and 70 but I use a heavier rail (83 or sometimes 100) to position the ties because the extra rail stiffness creates smoother curves and straighter straight sections. I usually have drawn a very fine pencil line with a drafting pencil on the Homasote that I line up with  the "bullseyes" in the ties. Then when everything looks good I place spikes on the ends of the ties (just in the Homasote, not through the tie, with the heads facing away from the tie) every several ties to keep them from shifting. At this point you can do an inspection of the rail by sighting and measuring with a calipers the distance from the inside of each rail to the pencil line. I usually work a three foot section of track at a time. Then I place  blue masking tape (1/2" or 3/4") on the ties running lengthwise using two strips each starting at the outside edge of a tie and pressed firmly over the rails. The idea is to "freeze" the tiestrip and rail in the shape that the spikes are holding it in. Now lift off the tiestrip/rail/masking tape assembly and carefully lay it aside.I use an X acto chisel blade to coax the ties up from between the spikes.  Spread the adhesive (I use Loctite/Polyseamseal clear adhesive caulk) in a thin layer and drop the tiestrip assembly back in and weight it down.

When it comes to laying the final rail I have some other hints which I will share if anyone is interested.

Sounds interesting

Thanks for the info, Jon. 

I would like to hear your tips on laying the final rail, so please post. I like your idea of using the spikes to hold the ties in place. I may turn the spike heads and actually use them to hold the ties during gluing.  Dry-fitting the rail in place to weight the ties down while gluing is another fail-safe for a good bond. Nice!

One of the additional benefits of using the Mod Podge is that the modeler will be able to see track centering guides in order to use the built-in CVT *bullseyes* which should be very useful and perhaps save the extra alignment steps that Jon described. 

I can only see positives with the Mod Podge considering the bond between the plastic ties and the homasote is rock solid. Plus, once I glue down the ballast the track should be reinforced even more.

More on Laying CV Ties

I should explain that I am a retired mechanical engineer and when I began my present layout I decided that the trackwork would be as good as I could reasonably make it. So I tend to do things that most people would reject such as 60" minimum radius curves, making my own spikes (because I didn't like any of the available ones), and cutting my own Homasote roadbed using a type that costs almost $200 a sheet. When I get the Homasote I give it a skim coat of plaster and block sand it smooth with 150 grit and paint it with a vapor barrier primer and sand again. Then I have a perfectly flat and very smooth surface that I can draw a very fine line on and will seal out moisture and control the effect of humidity changes.So, I know most will not see the need to do all this but to get back to your original issue of laying the CV ties and getting rail down I have some ideas you might want to consider.First I would suggest painting the roadbed before doing anything else. This will help keep all the water that will come later from air, ballast adhesive, and scenery work out of the roadbed. After you lay the tie/tape/rail piece in the adhesive I would place some 3/4" strips of high quality particle board (like Melanine  or a high density one) about as wide as the ballast edge (2" in HO) on top of the rail and weight or clamp it. The goal is to create an even pressure on the rail so it ends up perfectly flat and without any high and low spots. I don't like the idea of holding the ties at their ends down in the adhesive as they may flex up where it matters-under the rail.  Sometimes, for a variety of reasons, you might later want to move the tiestrip slightly or take it out all together and this requires softening the adhesive. I don't know about Mod Podge but latex caulk can be removed. I use DAP Caulk Be  Gone and there are others. It really works quite well. 

Thanks, Jon

Oh, a mechanical engineer, huh? Well, that explains your approach then.  I have a son who’s a civil engineer, so I have some idea how engineers think. 

I appreciate your additional ideas, Jon. Sounds like you have some great high performance trackwork. Would you be able to post some pictures perhaps? 

You were going to explain how you adhere the rail to the CV ties. I’m very interested in your approach and if it’s different from what others have tried (ie: Barge cement thinned with MEK, pliobond, etc.).

You make a good point about having to remove ties. My Mod Podge test appears to not allow for easy removal.

Adhering rail to CV tie strips

I'd also be very interested in others' experiences and preferred methods for adhering rail to the tie strips.  I have not had any luck finding Barge cement and MEK here in Canada, plus I'm wasn't looking forward to dealing with the fumes from the MEK in my relatively contained basement.  I found unthinned contact cement to be too stringy, and have yet to try the Pliobond, although I have a tube from Fast Tracks with a syringe-type applicator.

After speaking with the proprietor of Central Valley, I went with his recommendation to try the Microscale medium viscosity gel-type ACC.  I'm not so pleased with the results, for two main reasons.  

First, the ACC gives next to no working time.  I use both code 55 and 70 Micro Engineering rail, and the 55 in particular is an issue because the web base is narrower than the channel in the tie strips.  This requires moving it into place via track gages, but there's insufficient working time with the ACC and no option to adjust later.  

The other issue is that I find the rail tends to pop off the ties, and not only at the ends of my layout sections (not technically modules because I'm not following a standard), but also in turnouts.  The bond is not always strong enough to withstand the forces from the points pressing against the rails, for example.  However, I'm pretty sure I can address this going forward by following Joe Fugate's method of substituting some PC ties in the turnouts, and also anchoring to PC ties epoxied to wood at the section ends.

If anybody has some positive experiences with other methods, or a different way to work with the ACC, I'd appreciate hearing about it.

Robin Talukdar

Modelling CN's Waterloo Spur

Please excuse a nube question.

What is/are CV tie strips?  I gather from reading here and looking at the photos included, that they are for "hand-laid" tracks, correct?

Thanks,

Hoping to get started with my own soon.

Donato

CV ties

http://www.cvmw.com/cvt.htm

More on CV Track

CV makes two types of tiestrip, the original 2001,2002 for which you must either glue or spike the rail and the newer 2003 which has the "spikes" and rail anchors. Of course you can glue and spike also on the 2003. I use the 2003 on my mainline code 70, using the built in "spikes" and anchors supplemented with by custom made spikes from office staples primarily at the rail ends (I don't use rail joiners as I see no need for them and I don't like how they look). I am constantly checking the distance between the inside of both rails and the pencil line to an accuracy of a couple thousandths of an inch. Since the rail doesn't fit tight in the tie plate you can nudge it into allignment with the plastic "spikes" and anchors or traditional spikes. In the event that the tiestrip is too far off center you can shave off some spikes and tieplates with a #17 chisel blade and use regular spikes. The 2003 "spikes" and anchors won't grip code 55 and 60 rail so you must use the 2001 or 2002. I use the original Barge cement and spikes for this and it has worked very well. The Barge now sold  almost anywhere has been reformulated and I won't use it. I buy the original (red and yellow label) in quarts at leather supply stores and you may be able to get it at a shoe repair place. I understand that this will also be gone soon, and may already be. I can give some hints on using the Barge if you are able to find the "red label" stuff and are interested.

I have some photos of my track but I don't know how to get them on this site. I can email them though. Mine is jon@harrison.net

Removing CV ties glued with Mod Podge

Per Jon’s good comment, I tested removing the CV ties glued with outdoor Mod Podge. 

Below is photo of the inspector giving approval of the removal, although he wasn’t quite happy with the top layer of homasote pulling up it seemed liked a fair compromise and repairs can be made.

 
 

What is that?

Not having used CV ties, what does that black box represent?

Charles

Black box

Charles,

That’s the ubiquitous railfan black box that records the movements and motives of all railfans within 50 feet of the box. So far, that particular box is fully recorded with prototype modelers measuring tie spacing, sampling ballast to match color, along with several fans run off by pesky guard dogs. 

Actually, it molded details that represent rail anchors. 

Description of the box

Scott, I prefer your description of the black box instead of the reality of it. It was convincing.

Barge Cement

In the states the original Barge (yellow & red label) is still available in quarts at leather supply stores and possibly shoe repair places. It is the adhesive of choice for leather work. The word is that it will be phased out in 2020 for air quality reasons. Then the only Barge will be the blue & black label stuff that is available everywhere in the states in smaller containers. It has been reformulated without the offending chemicals, and I am afraid that those may be necessary to bond styrene and nickel silver. There is no evidence that it will work long term for our purpose and I won't use it. I realize that a quart is a few lifetimes supply but it retails here for about $18 which is what you'd pay for a few tubes of it, and the tubes don't last that long. I set up a small fan to blow away the fumes from my face. Whatever adhesive you use it should remain somewhat flexible to account for expansion/contraction. Barge is and ACC isn't. When I build a CV turnout I use ACC mainly to position the rail until I spike it. In a 12" long turnout length I don't think expansion/contraction is an issue and I have the spikes as a backup. I have a lot of track and turnouts with 55,60, and 70 rail down for about eight years and have never had rail pop loose.

Consider Matte Medium

I have used Liquitex Matte Medium, tinted with my ground color to lay down my track and switches. I spread it just slightly less than the tie width and spiked the ends of the ties down until it set up overnight.  For my hand-laid areas, I have a metal ruler that I would weigh down to hold the ties in place.  When we moved, I found that with a putty knife, I could gently pry up all the flex track and switches; wood ties, not so much.  That and I could sand off the Matte Medium with a sanding block from the back of the flex track and switches without any major issues.

And yes, I could see my drawn track center line through the tinted material.