Signalling on the JL&T begins...

Over the last week I have started our venture into signalling the JL&T.

For a temporary fix to a throwing of a series of turnouts while operating the layout, I've installed a few of the Tortoise's and wired them to some DPDT switches.  These will be replaced at a later date with push button switches wired direct to a SE8C and controlled by JMRI.

These are the terminal blocks I have installed to power up the series of Tortoise's in the area, they run off a 12V (adjustable from 9V to 12V) and running 2.5A.  This will be run as a 12V buss around the layout to control the Tortoise's.  Again these are temporary and will be replaced with smaller more reliable terminal blocks and either Cat5 or Cat6 wiring as the standard for the signalling wiring.

As part of the installation I also made and installed a small fascia panel for the area too.  This was a draft version, but has turned out quite reasonable and will end up being the standard for all of my panels.  These were done on Pixelmator and laminated then stuck onto 3mm MDF with double sided tape.

The panels and switches will be recessed into the fascia at a later date...

The DPDT switches wired directly to the Tortoise Motors for manual control...

More to come soon as we progress on the signalling...

Jas.

One toggle switch

would have been sufficient to control both turnouts on a crossover.  Seeing as this is temporary, it's no big deal.  Looking forward to seeing your new signals and how you hook all this up Jas.  It's going to be an interesting topic .

There is an answer...

I've had that very question with several people now too Michael, and for the life of me I cant recall the answer but it was a compelling enough point to make me use two switches instead of one for both turnouts.  When I remember or someone reminds me I'll post the answer back up.

Hopefully the thread will have enough good content to get an article up and running in the future, always happy to share the progress if at some stage it helps others out as well.

Jas...

One toggle switch Tue,

The only reason I could think

The only reason I could think of for doing it this way would be for some issue with the signaling system, and I can not off the top of my head come up with one. However, your system will work it just requires more hardware. So the choices are yours. I am not well versed in electronics, there are others on here that are very talented and manage to solve problems with ease. My vote would have been for the paired turnouts and one switch so as to eliminate operators failing to throw both and putting equipment on the ground.

Thanks for posting and keeping us updated Jas on the developments down under (in more ways than one) sorry bad pun but could not resist. Have you got any updates on additions to your track plan since you put the addition on the building or did I miss something?

Not right

I dont believe that this is correct. You can have componenets from multiple systems running on a layout. One thing Jas will have to do I think is to run a dedicated LocoNet for the SE8C and any other Digitrax Components he uses to the CPU via an interface. I would recommend the Loco Buffer USB 

The SE8C is a very cool board. I am using three of them on my own layout. Once you tak ehte time to figure them out they are very powerful. 

Wiring the motors

One of the things our club did when installing tortoise motors was to wire all the terminals against a wiring template even if we weren't going to use the functionality immediately. These wires were all then terminated in a terminal block. That way you could mount the terminal block remote to the tortoise with better access. It means in the future all you need to do is connect to the terminal block to use the micro switch etc functionality of the motors. Can't remember who shared that tip. Might have been Art Houston on this forum.

Kevin

NCE & Digitrax are compatible...

Hey Ron,

A NCE DCC System is actually compatible with Digitrax hardware for detection & signalling, it only requires a few pieces of extra hardware and some wiring changes to make it work just like a Loconet.

For those interested here are the links to the layouts and owners that we are using as reference for our Simple Serial Buss - Standalone Loconet:

http://www.quaker-valley.com/CTC/Loconet.html &  http://www.rr-cirkits.com/decoders/ssb-wiring.jpg.

At this stage we may be using the RR CirKits hardware to connect back to the PC & JMRI, or another method using other hardware.

My idea throughout the remainder of the thread is to provide links to all of the references that I am working from, to install signalling for a NCE DCC layout using Digitrax or detection & signalling hardware.  One of things I found difficult was to source the information, hopefully by placing it all into one thread it can become a one stop shop for those looking at installing signalling.

It's by no means the concise works on all signalling but hopefully it will give modellers a little more insight in lamens terms as to what's involved, chronicle the process with lots of photos and how too threads.  That's my plan...

Jas...

Two toggle switches...

Ok guys I remembered why I wired the toggle switches this way, after discussions about the set up in the future of the turnouts and the wiring configurations it was decided that we are going to use push button controls for local turnout control on the fascia.

The issue with this arises because we are going to eventually be using the SE8C to control the Tortosie motors locally and from JMRI.  The push buttons send a signal through the SE8C and then via JMRI to switch locally, this has several advantages.  For starters there are only two wires required to be wired between the push button and the SE8C, the turnouts can be controlled locally and via a dispatcher from a panel using JMRI.

The downside of this configuration and particularly when using toggles is that if the toggle was thrown from the fascia, and then the dispatcher changed it from the panel you effectively have the switch reversed the opposite to what's on the local panel.  With push buttons this becomes a none issue, and it's a matter of checking the position of the switch.

I have decided to wire the toggles this way for consistency, so there will always be two push buttons when running from the SE8C's, I always have the ability to program JMRI to move both switches with on button push, it also needs to be remembered that the toggles are purely temporary and will be replaced by the push buttons once the SE8C's arrive.

Jas...

There are also

momentary action toggle switches, which will mount in the same holes as your current toggles. You can swap them out without removing the plate. Pricier than buttons, though.

pqe         

Great start Jas!

Great start, looks like you have been doing some good research and thinking about the project.

Having the signal system on a stand alone Loconet works well and has been very reliable for my VS so far.

Good luck and enjoy the trip. Signals bring a whole new "aspect" to operations.... pun intended.

I've been lucky...

Randy,

I've now got a Digitrax detection & signaling expert on hand now to ask and seek advice from that lives about 45 minutes away from our layout.  Brendan is a wealth of knowledge and is always willing to help out (and he has a killer N scale layout based around the D&H) so I'm extremely fortunate to have found him.

Thanks for all your help to in the early stages, I've always said it is one of the greatest things about this hobby is the willingness of people to share and help out.

Cheers,

Jas...

Signal Plan...

Here is the work in progress signal plan for the layout, it incorporates the new extension and is roughly blocked.  This is by no means the final version as myself and Brendan have some work to do fine tuning it.

The main is fully signalled, and the passing sidings will be to, but mostly with dwarfs.  It needs to be noted that I'm not following a prototype system, I'm not overly concerned if it also doesn't follow the RR's signalling systems that I'm modelling too.

We have decided to base the system around operationally what will work for the layout and its operations sessions.  So if you pick up that there are signals missing from places that normally would have signals, thats fine we have countered it oin our plan to have plant protected in groups in places.  This significantly cuts down on blocks,  signals and the hardware required for detection & signalling.

The next stage is to install all of the Tortoise Switch machines on the mainline, then connect these to the SE8C's via push button, momentary switches and get these working through JMRI.  After this we will be looking at the wiring for the entire layout and reconfiguring this to work in with the common rail power for detection.

Jas...

Building up the Hardware...

Over the past month I have been beginning to collect all the necessary hardware to begin the signalling installation for the layout.  To date I have two (2) Digitrax SE8C's for Tortoise Switching & Signal Heads, one (1) Digitrax BDL168, five (5) double head - searchlight masts, five (5) single head - searchlight masts, five (5) of each single & double head dwarf signals all from Tomar Industries.

I have the power supply for the SE8C's which is a 15V - 2A transformer which will run us a layout buss for all of the SE8C's, I have also ordered the RR CirKits Locobuffer to interface the standalone Loconet with JMRI through the layout PC.

I have also ordered another twelve (12) Tortoise motors, bringing the total to 30.  It should be noted that the totals mentioned in this post only refer to being able to detect, switch & signal the main.  In order to do all three on the entire layout and include all passing sidings and spurs it will require seven (7) SE8C's, five (5) BDL168's, 50 Tortoise Machines, 50 Signal Masts/Dwarf Heads, the layout will be broken into 73 blocks.

When you look at the totals and start thinking about price it becomes a major investment, it's almost the biggest if not the second biggest for a layout.  Our layout is also by no means a large layout, and there are still extra costs to be factored too.  I have twin monitor screens to purchase (for the CTC/JMRI panel), there is added electrical work to be done for the JMRI PC, the hundreds of feet/metres of CAT6 cable, momentary SPST switches for the panel mounted fascia's, and the list goes on......

Hopefully towards the end I'll be able to break it all down and give a true cost analysis of the project, and by posting threads of each section give those contemplating it a better understanding of the process involved trying to get there.  More soon...

Jas.

SE8c use

You don't need a Digitrax command station to use their Se8c signaling board.  You DO need a computer and JMRI, and a secondary command bus (i.e. Loconet) provided by some type of computer interface, most commonly this is done with a LocoBuffer.

Mark Z.

Standalone LocoNet...

Your spot on Mark, my original plan was to have the SE8C's for the time being controlling the Tortoise motors on the mainline.  These would just be on a standalone system not hooked up to any JMRI software, just purely to drive the switches via fascia panels.

My plan now is to implement the full detection, switching & signalling for the entire layout mainline as a first step.  The standalone Loconet will be connected to my layout PC & JMRI via a RR CirKits - Locobuffer USB to my NCE DCC Command Station.  This will drive all of the SE8C's for the signals & Tortoise Machines, and the BDL168's for the layout detection.

The only alteration required to get the Loconet working with the NCE System is the installation of a termination device for the LocoNet Data Path to function.  This is well documented on the JMRI website and by others who have posted on the internet too.

Hopefully this thread will give others a good guide to work from if they want to implement a signalling system.

Jas...

Document, Document and Document

Jas,

We are always in a hurry to build, but when it comes to even moderately complex circuits and wiring you can rarely have enough documentation. Having designed and installed several systems similar to what you are building, I was often confronted by club members anxious to get things running. But after running and maintaining the systems for several years the crews have been very appreciative of the the effort put into the documentation.

Plan, Plan & Document...

Very wise words Ken!

One thing I have been doing since starting on MRH is to design and draw all of my electrical circuits, this way if I need to replicate it I have a record of it, or as the memory begins to fade I can quickly refer back to it.

The flip side is I also get to share it with the masses, and hopefully someone will find them of benefit.

I will be documenting & drawing circuit diagrams of everything to do with the detection, switching, signalling and re-wire or the power districts as we go.

Jas...

More Hardware...

As part of the installation of the detection & signalling on the JL&T I have had to shift the layout PC, the NCE Command Station and some of the wiring.

The new location is directly behind the new dispatchers desk and is easily accessible from under the layout.

I can fit a roller chair under here and work easily on any of the wiring now, the main buses are about to be re-run as I have to allow for Direct Home Wiring of the layout for detection using Digitrax BDL's.  I also have to add the LocoNet to for connection to the SE8C's & BDL's, I'm currently working on installing all of the Tortoise Motors for the mainline.

More soon.

Jas...

JL&T Railroad _ Detection Blocks & Signal Plan...

This week I managed to get to reach a milestone for the detection & signaling of the layout.  I have finally finsihed the detection block & signal placement plan.

Special thanks firstly needs to be mentioned to my good friend and resident Digitrax Guru - Brendan Dennis.  Brendan and I have spent about 2.5 hours last Thursday night marking out the detection blocks & signal masts/dwarfs onto the layout.

The plan below is again done on AnyRail software.

The blocks have named using a simple naming convention, they will all eventually be labeled using the town name or area on the layout.  The only area to date using it is "South Bend Curve".

To ensure that the common detection rail is isolated correctly we used a small yellow paint marker to place a dot near the inside rail (nearest the fascia) so that it is consistent when re-wiring the layout.

The CP7 & CP13 are the two blocks and the boundary, the CP stnads for "Centre Peninsula".  The T7-1 is for Turnout #7 on SE8C board #1.  The yellow dot is where the insulator is to be placed.

Next stage is to place the insulators around the layout.

Jas...

Ready for the Re-Wiring...

Santa came early this year!

Now for a few nights of re-wiring ready for the installation of the new PSX Circuit Breakers, and installing the common rail detection back to BDL168's.

Merry Xmas to everyone on MRH!

Jas...

What else do you do New Years Eve...

When you wife is working nightshift and your stuck at home with the boys who are in bed?

You keep adding isolators for your block detection!  Urrgghh...

Jas...

Ready for the installation phase...

Well yesterday I removed all of our locomotives and rolling stock from the layout and cleaned up the deck.  Just waiting on a shipment of another 24 - Tortoise Motors, and another 3 - Digitrax BDL168's and we are ready to make the major push to install all the signal wiring, remaining Tortoise's, LocoNet, power bus for the accessories, and the boards with hardware.  

After placing all the isolators for the detection blocks I found we had created a few dead sections that had no feeders.  These will be added when we do the rewire as the have to wired to the BDL's, so I have another two of them make on boards, and another 5 SE8C boards to make up too.

In the order from Litchfield Station I also got some ready made R15k resistive 33" wheels sets too, this will allow me to quickly make up a few pieces of rolling stock and a caboose to be able to test out the detection sections, BDL's and ensure JMRI is working and receiving the data from the LocoNet.

Seeing it's our summer over here I'm hoping to throw a wiring session or two, followed by a BBQ lunch, and then a little ops session after with a great group of guys that live within an hour of us.

Jas...

Mainline Tortoise's Installed...

Last night I installed the last of the mainline Tortoise's, next step will be to install the remaining passing siding & spur ones.

Once all the Switch Machines are installed it will be onto installing the SE8C and wiring the push buttons in.

In all I have 52 Tortoise Motors to install, connected to eight Digitrax SE8C's.

Jas...