Oh no!!!

What will I do with the thousands feet of wire I already have purchased?!?!?!?

Though seriously, i don't think this solution will work with all locomotives, such as HO Scale SW units.  And I for one don't want to have a permanent box car attached to the locomotive, which is often suggested as a solution.

The other issue is what about block detection which often relies on current detection through the track.

Though in the long run, this would be a HUGE benefit.

Ken L

Block Detection

You can still easily use the wheels to complete a circuit for block detection. Especially since the wheels are no longer part of the circuit for the motor.

Battery Powered Locos

What?  No more reverse loop issues?  It will be interesting to see what impact this might have on model railroading in the future.

Not my thing - I'm a EE.

Nope. I'm not a convert! 

The thought of leaving my layout turned on most nights, with every loco I might use, out of it's box and placed somewhere on the track, just so they can all charge up for 8 hours, in order to run for maybe an hour, just doesn't appeal. 

I'm not sure I have enough track to leave every loco out on. Especially if I'm going to operate with a small subset. Then I have to put the rest back. I can just see all those fine handrails being knocked off in just a few outings.

Nor do I see myself  buying all those batteries, on top of the cost of the loco and DCC, and wireless, then replacing them every 3 years. And for what? To save the simplicity of DCC wiring???  Are the "free" rails going away?

I've never had any pick-up or sound decoder or frog power issues with regular wiring and track. So what's broken?

It might not be broken, but it's a PITA!

To have to wire every piece of track with feeder wires is one major PITA.  You may not mind the job, but i'm sure there are many people who would like to find a solution that removes the need to spend countless hours needed to wire even a modest size layout.

Ken L.

Getting there

I still feel that the ultimate solution for electrically powered small scale indoor model trains will be to use the track for power, via a small battery or capacitor to maintain power for a few seconds, and direct radio control.

In other words, this system with a smaller battery and more or less constant track power.

[edit] How does this system compare with the NWSL system?  The big difference I see is that this one has a transmitter which lets me use the radio equipped models seamlessly with my regular DCC system.

I have two questions.  First, what will it cost?  Second, what sort of range will the transmitters have?

It is my thing, but I'm no EE

Nobody said you have to leave the engines on the track.  You could, of course, if that's how you've configured the battery to be charged.  A lot of large scale folks take the batteries out, or plug them directly into a charger (using a port hidden behind a hatch on the model, for example).

As for run time, it would of course depend on the battery.  A 1 AH (of 1000 mAH - same thing) battery would run a typical HO scale model for several hours of typical use.  Obviously, heavy loads and higher speeds would reduce the run time.  Limited run time is the reason that I feel it would be better to have track power with battery backup, which would give virtually unlimited run time and no trouble with dirty track or unpowered frogs.

The "cost" of a track powered model is the need to keep track clean, to install feeders, to put wipers on every wheel, etc.  I cannot tell you the number of times I've tried to figure out how to get reliable pickup out of a very small model (Bachmann Thomas, for example).  I have a pair of track cleaning cars, a Bright Boy, and a foam abrasive block that I use religiously in order to keep my track clean enough to give reasonably trouble-free operation.  It is most definitely a PITA.

As for the cost of the components, is it any different than DC vs. DCC, or silent vs. sound?  If you want the function, you'll find a way to purchase the components.  If not, there is no requirement that you do so.

Never?  You are the first model railroader that I have EVER heard make that claim.  We ALL have had issues with dirty track, dirty wheels, accidental shorts, etc.  While those issues may not be severe, they ARE issues, and unprototypical ones at that.  Some people (myself included) may feel that being able to divorce the motor control signal from the need for constant electrical contact with both rails is a very desirable thing.  Others (like yourself, it seems) may feel that the added complexity and cost is not worth the benefit.  That's a perfectly valid position, but it's fair to admit the other side of the argument is valid as well.

Now we're talkin'

This is the next logical step in train control.  It is still compatible with your existing equipment, but cuts the rail/wheel contact out of the equation.  This is something I could get involved with.

My 200 powered locos on charge every night - just in case???

I see features that cost more and more, the larger the system you have. I don't see any benefits that increase as your system grows, but lots of down side, like charging and wireless repeaters.

If you have places on your track where pick-up is a problem, then it's a place that needs fixing, just as you would if there was place that always causes derailments.  If a loco has pick-up problems, it needs work.

If you feel laying track and wiring it up is a PITA, or you don't want to check out a misbehaving mechanism, why are you a "Model" Railroader in the first place?

BTW, I found a long time ago, that using an abrasive eraser or friction pad to clean Nickel Silver track is the quickest way to end up with permanently "dirty" track there is.

Well, Andy, it's like this...

My club has 70-odd locos, 800 pieces of rolling stock and about 600 feet of mainline in service right now.  In order to ensure reliable operation for an operating session, we clean the wheels on all 70 engines, and as much of the track as we have time to do.  Our staging sessions take all evening a couple nights before our ops session, with about 10 people at work, and half of them are spending most of their time, for 3 or 4 hours, cleaning track or wheels.  If that's not a PITA, I don't know what is.

Our trackwork is all handlaid, we wire every piece of rail to the track bus and do not tolerate poor mechanisms or out of gauge wheels or track.  Our stuff runs as smooth as you will find anywhere.  But cleaning everything endlessly for a few hours of operation is not my idea of fun.  I'm a problem solver, and cleaning track is not fixing the problem but rather treating the symptom.  Rail/wheel contact is the Achilles heel of model railroading, and always has been.  This is the cure.

Cleaning Track

Did you care to share your magic solution?

Model train control

Model train control is continually evolving. Quite interesting to see the changes. More efficient batteries and shrinking size of electronics is big plus. How the market will support it is going to be interesting.

Curious on how much of this will be USA, EU or China produced.

Rich

I actually HATE Modeling!

"If you feel laying track and wiring it up is a PITA, or you don't want to check out a misbehaving mechanism, why are you a "Model" Railroader in the first place?"

Because i'm not a MODEL Railroader.  I am an Operate Railroader that has to model in order to accomplish the goal of operation! And no, Computer simulators does not offer the satisfaction of operating on an actual railroad layout. 

I hate most aspects of actual modeling.  It is tedious and often times torturous for me, but it is a means to an end. 

So if this new system simplifies things for me in terms of not having to do any wiring, i find that an extreme plus!

Ken L

Battery power

The big question is what is the cost? How is it compare in price to DCC? Like everthing else out there when

it first comes out the price most likely be way out of range. So if this flies it will be a few years before it becomes

reasonable to buy and use. It will be interesting to see if this catches on.     ron netti

Rail cleaning isn't magic

Avoid scratching the rail head and inside top edge at all costs.

Use liquid metal polish to remove the tarnish, polish with a cloth or paper towel and wipe any residue clean with a solvent, like alcohol.  If the layout is not used, you may have to repeat every 6 months.

Run trains with clean wheels. Run trains frequently though an alcohol pit in a hidden area regularly to easily keep their wheels clean. Over time, and regular use, they should in turn carry enough solvent around to keep the rest or the rails clean from the slight oily deposits that emanate from most locos and fingers.

The idea is to develop (and keep improving) as close to a smooth mirror like finish on the rail contact surface as possible. And that's what prototype rail, in use, looks like too.  The smooth finish after polishing resists tarnishing for months. Running trains (with clean wheels) in the meantime is also restorative of the good finish.

Even shallow fine scratches create exposed metal micro pits that oxidize quickly, but can't then be cleaned out by more surface rubbing. Eventually you end up with a microscopically rough surface, where 95% of the rail head is corroded, but below the remaining highest peaks of the rough metal, so it can't be cleaned off, except by re-scratching even deeper than before.

The extra problems cause by the "erasers" is that they deposit a thin layer of their rubbery "binder" back on (and into) the ground rail top, and thickly on the edges. This stuff then attracts and holds all the dust and oil from the wheels and forms a black sticky gunge  which blocks electricity and then helps form a thick deposit on the wheels passing over it.

I should mention that having steel wheels on steel rail, in frequent use, has even less problems. But steel rail has traditionally not been well thought of in the US.

rusted rail tops

Now we can finally have rusted rail tops in sidings and lightly used branch lines. Nothing ruins the effect of a light duty branch line like the look of highly polished rails.

No more small steam locomotives stalling on frogs, not having to create a frog powering solution, complex trackwork could go unpowered to simplify wiring.

I for one can't wait.

Then why not a capacitor?

Build this into the Decoder and the the track cleaning issue will go away where you only have minor problems. This is needed anyway to eliminate the small interruptions in power causing the sound decoders to fidget.

running on Homosote

I must say that when my locomotives run off the end of the track onto the Homosote, I much prefer that they stop right now !

DRT

Polished wing rails?

One of the things I really hate about cleaning track is that when you clean a turnout, you end up cleaning all the rail, including the wing rails on the frog and the guard rails; when is the last time you saw those parts of a turnout anything but rusted?  It's possible to very carefully clean just the running surfaces and try to leave rusty paint on the guard rails, but really, who does that?  Not needing to clean track would allow details like this to be preserved.

I think it needs to be repeated that this is compatible with your existing DCC system, which means you can run your old jerk-on-the-dirt stuff alongside the new radio units.  It's not an all or nothing thing.  I just suspect you will like running the radio units better before too long, and start working on upgrading or replacing your old stuff.  It's not mandatory, just likely.  

Clubs will also be able to introduce this as an option.  All the m.u. capability should still be there which exisited with the old equipment.  You would just need to work out how the radio units would be recharged.  Personally, I think it should be through the track.  You could set up fueling tracks, just like the prototype.  I wonder how quickly a unit can be recharged with these batteries?

Charging

Looking at the R/C world, which I'm starting to delve into, depending on the type of battery, charging really shouldn't take that long.  I'd have to look at the details, but we run a 5000mah lithium/polymer battery in our R/C truck and it takes about an hour to charge when the battery gets down to about 25% life.  With LiPos, you don't want to get below that really as that is when they start to puff.  Still, you can build circuit protection in if it senses a voltage drop to save your battery.  Now, these are fairly big batteries (about the size of an HO SD40-2 from the cab to the back, so you'd definitely be getting something smaller, but I know there are smaller batteries available.  The real point here is that charging with current battery technology really shouldn't take long.

not until...

Silver bullet not required

I think that part of the beauty of this system is that you don't have to buy into 100% radio.  If you have locomotives which are too small (at this point--and even that is debatable) for R/C, you can still put your Z scale, track powered decoder in and run the thing conventionally.

The reason I doubt the impracticality of R/C in just about any locomotive, is that there are people (mostly in Europe, I think,) putting R/C in HO scale vehicles.  Yes, that's HO scale; and not big trucks; I saw an HO SUV with miniature steering servos and proportional speed control on a You Tube video.  If that can be done, an HO 44 tonner is a piece of cake.  N scale can't be far behind.

Yeah, it will take a while to get things affordable and simple; but some people thought DCC would never catch on, and look at it now.

Who indeed - someone who models the prototype perhaps?

"One of the things I really hate about cleaning track is that when you clean a turnout, you end up cleaning all the rail, including the wing rails on the frog and the guard rails; when is the last time you saw those parts of a turnout anything but rusted?  It's possible to very carefully clean just the running surfaces and try to leave rusty paint on the guard rails, but really, who does that?"

Here's a picture for you

Be renewed by a change of your mind.

Exciting!  This system may help get a number of older steam locos in my collection functional in DCC.  I suppose the deal breaker is whether a sound decoder, a speaker, a radio receiver and a battery can be crammed into the tender.  I hope that Tam Valley can bring the product successfully to market.