Michael Tondee

Well, I finally feel like I've made enough progress to post something. No matter what Walthers likes to say on the  packaging about "how easy it is" to install this TT, it takes time.  I have installed the TT and the  two approach/departure tracks as can be seen below in the picture. Keen eyes will notice the ties missing along a portion of one of the tracks.  This is where my coaling tower is to go. I don't quite understand why but the instructions say to remove the ties where the track runs under the coaling tower.  I get removing them on the service track where hoppers are unloaded into a pit below but why they would be removed on one of the loco tracks where tenders are filled  is a mystery to me. At any rate, it's easier to replace ties than remove them after the track is down so I went ahead and took them out.  I can always put some back in place if I decide they need to be there. Also of note is the roundhouse, it's just sitting there in the general vicinity of where it will be located, I've yet to determine it's exact positioning.

I posed my lone loco on the TT for this shot. It's no steamer of course but it's what I use for testing. I may or may not keep it once I start to acquire some of the steam power on my wish list.  Anyway, that's where I am. Took a little break to relax and to post this and now I'm going to get back at it. Thanks for your interest in my blog.....

Regards,

Michael

TT1.jpg 

 

Michael, A.R.S. W4HIJ

 Model Rail, electronics experimenter and "mad scientist" for over 50 years.

Member of  "The Amigos" and staunch disciple of the "Wizard of Monterey"

My Pike: The Blackwater Island Logging&Mining Co.

Reply 0
Bernd

Your TT

Looking good so far. Are you going to keep those shims under the outside edge? If you have to shim it that high I would suggest making a full circle under that outside edge for support. Plastic will warp after a time.

Bernd

New York, Vermont & Northern Rwy. - Route of the Black Diamonds - NCSWIC

Reply 0
Michael Tondee

Shims....

Yes, the shims stay. I had to shim it to compensate for the roadbed height  and make the track level match.  There are only four in place now but I intend to put several more around the perimeter.  I just did enough to get it mounted. BTW....it's no fun going under the benchwork to install the TT mounting screws from below.  If I had it to do over again, I'd mount it to the baseboard  on my bench and then mount baseboard, pit and all onto the benchwork.

I have some Woodland Scenics sheet foam that matches the height of their roadbed. It will go under the roundhouse and around most of the perimeter of the TT so  the ground level will be  even with the TT rim. The shims will be hidden then.  A lot of people don't seem to like the WS foam roadbed but I actually prefer it to cork myself.

Regards,

Michael

Michael, A.R.S. W4HIJ

 Model Rail, electronics experimenter and "mad scientist" for over 50 years.

Member of  "The Amigos" and staunch disciple of the "Wizard of Monterey"

My Pike: The Blackwater Island Logging&Mining Co.

Reply 0
Joe Atkinson IAISfan

Progress

Congratulations on the progress Michael!  Looks good!  I see what you mean now from your other thread about the situation you face regarding possible stub tracks opposite your approaches.  With your mainline that close to the TT, I'd suggest going without the stubs and just do as the one reply in that thread noted, mounting vertical posts opposite each approach to prevent anything from running beyond the TT.  My prototype liked to use sections of discarded rail mounted vertically as bollards around the local engine facility.  Maybe you could do the same for these posts?

Have you been using particle board in your benchwork for long?  Any problems with that?  If this is a new thing for you, you might consider asking around before you get any further, as I'm pretty sure I've heard of it causing issues with warping over time.  Perhaps not an issue in your climate, but maybe worth checking anyway.

Reply 0
dfandrews

OSB

Michael,

Like Joe, I made note of your benchwork sheathing, the OSB (oriented stand board).  It is sensitive to moisture, and will swell.  The surfaces, especially the waxed side that you have facing up, have slow moisture absorption if it is, say, fog, or morning mist.  But liquid water is absorbed fairly readily.  So, if you are applying scenery materials, like plaster, that have a high water content, my experience is that trouble is likely.

Keep up the posts. It is interesting following your progress through the planning and construction. 

(Wish I had room for a turntable)! 

Don - CEO, MOW super.

Rincon Pacific Railroad, 1960.  - Admin.offices in Ventura County

HO scale std. gauge - interchanges with SP; serves the regional agriculture and oil industries

DCC-NCE, Rasp PI 3 connected to CMRI, JMRI -  ABS searchlight signals

Reply 0
Michael Tondee

It's actually not particle board....

But a product called OSB that is sort of a cross between plywood a particle board.  It's pretty stable stuff and in my experience much stronger than plain old particle board.  It's well supported too.  I don't known that I'd use it for "cookie cutter roadbed" on conventional open grid or L girder benchwork but for my application it's fine.

I have installed two short stubs opposite the two TT leads just to be safe from overshooting the TT bridge. With what I have in mind for the scenery with a low retaining wall built on that side of the pit, I think things will look fine. Won't be long before I will have to get busy building the coaling tower kit which I  sort of dread.  I'm a competent structure builder but it's not one of my favorite things to do in the hobby. Unfortunately it's a necessary evil unless you have a friend that likes to do it for you or can pay someone. Neither is an option for me. I have not decided yet whether to go with the water column I bought or to have a full fledged water tower at trackside. Water towers are a relatively easy scratch project but just a tank set off over to one side supplying the water column would be even simpler. I plan on getting the Walthers cinder conveyor and ashpit as soon as I save enough of my pennies to do so.  Then there's the sand house to consider but I may just have the sand supply hose running up and attached to the coaling tower.  It's a tight fit but I believe I have room to squeeze everything in! Little did I know how big this project was going to get when I plopped a TT down in the middle of my plan with SCARM but this is something that I've wanted for awhile.

Regards,

Michael

Michael, A.R.S. W4HIJ

 Model Rail, electronics experimenter and "mad scientist" for over 50 years.

Member of  "The Amigos" and staunch disciple of the "Wizard of Monterey"

My Pike: The Blackwater Island Logging&Mining Co.

Reply 0
Michael Tondee

We cross posted Don.....

But your info on the OSB is interesting.  I actually have some in an unfinished bathroom remodel in my house and have not noticed any issues with the moisture.  Granted, the bathroom is not used much though.  I'll keep an eye on it for sure and be careful not to get it too wet.   Unfortunately, it's a little late in the game to make changes now.

Regards,

Michael

Michael, A.R.S. W4HIJ

 Model Rail, electronics experimenter and "mad scientist" for over 50 years.

Member of  "The Amigos" and staunch disciple of the "Wizard of Monterey"

My Pike: The Blackwater Island Logging&Mining Co.

Reply 0
LKandO

OSB vs Plywood

Wouldn't rip it up now but Joe and Don are right - OSB is not as good as plywood when it comes to moisture. It swells unevenly. Might want to paint it or otherwise prevent your scenery application water from reaching the OSB. A common observation of this problem is panel edge swelling in OSB tongue-n-groove used on floors that received rain during the house construction. You can feel them through the carpet oftentimes.

Excerpt from RCI testing report:

CONCLUSIONS
 
Analysis conducted by NIST and ORNL clearly indicates a sig­nificant difference in moisture exchange performance of OSB and plywood in wet conditions. The extended periods of increased moisture content observed in the OSB panels can be expected to result in significantly exacerbated conditions of mold growth and 
wood rot. In wet conditions, the OSB will experience, over time, a much greater potential for severe structural deterioration. 
 
The inner and outer layers comprising the OSB panels do not work well together when moving excess moisture to the exterior surface, resulting in a product that is more susceptible than ply­wood to the deleterious effects of cyclic moisture exposure. This conclusion is consistent with test results reported by Okkonen and River42 at the USFS Forest Products Laboratory comparing the results of “one year of outdoor exposure” and “accelerated laboratory aging treatments” on plywood panels and “wood-based panels” consisting of OSB performance rated sheathing.
 
Read the full report here.

Alan

All the details:  http://www.LKOrailroad.com        Just the highlights:  MRH blog

When I was a kid... no wait, I still do that. HO, 28x32, double deck, 1969, RailPro
nsparent.png 

Reply 0
Michael Tondee

Appreciate the info....

It's good to know because I will now be a little more careful with my application of water during scenery construction. I swear though that the stuff in my bathroom has gotten wet before with no apparent ill effects.  I would not have thought of using it here otherwise.  I was trying to save a few bucks when money was tight. Live and learn.  I will paint it...I do that anyway, plywood foam or whatever, I put my base scenery color down everywhere.

Regards,

Michael

Michael, A.R.S. W4HIJ

 Model Rail, electronics experimenter and "mad scientist" for over 50 years.

Member of  "The Amigos" and staunch disciple of the "Wizard of Monterey"

My Pike: The Blackwater Island Logging&Mining Co.

Reply 0
Prof_Klyzlr

Removing sleepers

Dear Michael,

Um, could the "remove the sleepers from under the coaling stage" be because some coaling towers happened to co-incide with the location of the ash pit? (IE coal in the top, while simultaneously raking the ashes out of the bottom?)

Just thinking out loud...

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

Reply 0
Michael Tondee

Hmnnn......not sure about a pit under the tower

Quote:

Um, could the "remove the sleepers from under the coaling stage" be because some coaling towers happened to co-incide with the location of the ash pit?

I don't know Prof but if  that was the case, how would  the ashes be emptied from the pit if it were under the coaling tower?  I've learned a lot about engine servicing since starting this project but there is still much I don't know. The ash pit facilities I've seen are either like the Walthers ash conveyor kit where there is the pit and a conveyor or they are  done where a hopper or gon  is situated nearby and the ashes were hand shoveled out of the pit. Since I'm tight for space, it would actually be great if I could just say "my ashpit is under the coaling tower"  but it would have to be plausible or it would bother me.

Regards,

Michael

Michael, A.R.S. W4HIJ

 Model Rail, electronics experimenter and "mad scientist" for over 50 years.

Member of  "The Amigos" and staunch disciple of the "Wizard of Monterey"

My Pike: The Blackwater Island Logging&Mining Co.

Reply 0
Bill Brillinger

OSB

Normal OSB sheets here in Canada is warranted to survive for 30 days of exposure to rain, ice, snow and sun without surface or edge swelling. Higher end products such as "EdgeGold" OSB are rated for 90 days of standing water with no swelling.

Bill Brillinger

Modeling the BNML in HO Scale, Admin for the RailPro User Group, and owner of Precision Design Co.

Reply 0
LKandO

Canada Better Wood?

Must be good stuff. Not so fortunate south of you. During construction my house got rain for only a single day before it was under roof and the Georgia Pacific OSB flooring still swelled at the seams. Granted it was a drenching rain and work on the house paused for a few days thereafter. Eventually the contractor sanded it flat before flooring was put down.

Here is an excerpt from a company that sells engineered lumber processing chemicals. What they describe is exactly what I experienced: 

IntroductIon
 
Many building material deficiencies are so common that builders have stopped 
searching for solutions. Instead, they just manage around the poor product 
performance. Case in point: wood swells when it gets wet. It’s a law of nature. For 
instance, when OSB panels are used as subfloor and it rains during the construction 
process, or the panels are otherwise exposed to moisture (a very common occurrence), 
they typically swell when water wicks into the edges. This situation is so widespread 
that it’s not uncommon for builders in wet climates to actually budget for subfloor
panel-edge seam sanding on every job. Builders in drier climates will sand only as 
required. But in every case, the sanding is an added expense that runs at least a couple 
hundred dollars, to say nothing of the nuisance of scheduling the sander—you can’t 
sand OSB when it’s wet, for instance—and dealing with the annoying chips and dust.

Alan

All the details:  http://www.LKOrailroad.com        Just the highlights:  MRH blog

When I was a kid... no wait, I still do that. HO, 28x32, double deck, 1969, RailPro
nsparent.png 

Reply 0
Bernd

No ties

Could be they used that as the dumping pit for the hopper cars of coal. Theoretically it's covered by the tower.

I'm going to have a looks at the Walthers kit and see what this thing looks like.

Ok, I'm back. I see the coaling station has it's own track for un-loading. No other instructions as to why they have you remove the ties?

Bernd

New York, Vermont & Northern Rwy. - Route of the Black Diamonds - NCSWIC

Reply 0
DKRickman

My take on the ties

I went looking for photos of the Walthers coaling tower, and it looks to me like the kit has a piece which goes under the track:

The concrete coaling tower doesn't look like it has the same piece:

Ken Rickman

Danville & Western HO modeler and web historian

http://southern-railway.railfan.net/dw/

Reply 0
Michael Tondee

Of ties or "sleepers" and OSB.....

OK, going to cover a couple of points here.  As far as the ties or "sleepers"  as they are called  across the pond, it looks like I slightly misread the instructions. They apparently should be removed in the manner shown in the photo posted by Ken.  I removed them for the whole span of the plastic base. No big deal, it's a fairly simple matter to put some back.  I would rather have to do that then trying to remove them after the track was down.

OSB..... I did a little experiment last night to try and ease my mind about the suitability of the OSB.  I sprayed some with water  as one would do while doing scenery and let it sit for about ten minutes and there was no discernible swelling that I could detect. The water evaporated fairly quickly.  I dropped another small piece in a cup of water and let it soak a good couple of hours and it swelled up pretty good.  Not a very scientific test but good enough for me to discern that if I'm careful with the amount of water I use and limit the time of exposure that I should be fine.  I don't know how liberal everyone else is with water when they do water soluble scenery methods but I don't anticipate any issues as long as I'm careful.   I think it's plenty strong enough too, I have a joist every twelve inches.  Probably will not use it again but what's done is done.  Again, I do appreciate the heads up about it, it will cause me to be a little more careful and cautious with moisture, probably more so than I might have been otherwise.

Now I just have to figure out where to put my ashpit.  Some further research today leads me to believe it most likely would not be on the same track as coal and water.  Not a big issue, I can locate it  on the other track but then I've got to figure a way to get cars to it to carry away the cinders would may mean another turnout and one more track but it's doable.

I sure do appreciate everyone's input,

Michael

Michael, A.R.S. W4HIJ

 Model Rail, electronics experimenter and "mad scientist" for over 50 years.

Member of  "The Amigos" and staunch disciple of the "Wizard of Monterey"

My Pike: The Blackwater Island Logging&Mining Co.

Reply 0
LKandO

Brittain Yard Ash Pit

On the AC&Y at Brittain the ash pit was in fact on the same track as the coaling tower.

sh%20pit.png 

Alan

All the details:  http://www.LKOrailroad.com        Just the highlights:  MRH blog

When I was a kid... no wait, I still do that. HO, 28x32, double deck, 1969, RailPro
nsparent.png 

Reply 0
Virginian and Lake Erie

sanding

sanding also removes some of the product and as it dries out it weakens, when one adds the cost of sanding to a marginal cost saving it amounts to the same cost for an inferior product, not a good deal.

Reply 0
BOK

Concerning an ash pit by a

Concerning an ash pit by a coal tower I believe that wouldn't be the case since it could be a fire hazard.

Just a couple of ideas  about simple steam facilities. Many terminals which only handled one or two engines had minimal facilities unless on a mainline with more density. A  turntable/wye, a water column (fed from a distant tank),a small coal conveyor (Jordan products), a very small sand building (or none) and a couple of steel plates over the ties to dump cinders on is more than enough for a small facility.

My own modern short line facilities (handling a steam excursion engine and a diesel switcher for freight) are nothing more than a water column, a sand tower and a one stall metal, engine house. Fuel and lube oil are delivered weekly by tank truck so no storage tank on site.

I think if you keep your facilities a lot simpler you will be a lot happier. Barry

Reply 0
Bernd

3 posts 1 message?

I guess you're really trying to make your point pretty clear.

Bernd

New York, Vermont & Northern Rwy. - Route of the Black Diamonds - NCSWIC

Reply 0
Joe Atkinson IAISfan

C-c-cold!

It's cold where Barry lives.  Maybe he was shivering when he clicked on "Submit". 

Reply 0
Michael Tondee

Keeping it simple......

Quote:

I think if you keep your facilities a lot simpler you will be a lot happier.

Well that all depends. When I started out with this, I had a fairly simple facility in mind.  The thing is though, as I got more and more involved with it and researched it and then threw around ideas here, the more extensive I wanted it to become. My main limitation is space, I'll have to draw a line somewhere eventually but otherwise I can go  as detailed and complex as I'd like. I don't have to worry about what "my prototype" did because I don't have one. As long as something is within the realm of plausibility, it's fair game.

Michael

Michael, A.R.S. W4HIJ

 Model Rail, electronics experimenter and "mad scientist" for over 50 years.

Member of  "The Amigos" and staunch disciple of the "Wizard of Monterey"

My Pike: The Blackwater Island Logging&Mining Co.

Reply 0
ctxmf74

"careful with the amount of water "

it might help to seal the open spaces with some kind of water repellant like varnish or polyurethane before adding water based glue? For the smaller areas under the tracks I'd just work with as little water as possible then hit it with a hair dryer or portable heater with blower when done( taking care to not melt the plastic) ...DaveB

Reply 0
Michael Tondee

I really don't see an issue with the OSB

I mean, I'll paint all the open areas with my base scenery color, I do that anyway. I'll be careful about excess moisture too but from my quick experiments, it took prolonged exposure to moisture to make it swell.  I just don't think the amount of water I use in my scenery work is going to cause a problem.  I think you would literally have to just drench it and leave it wet  to get  the swelling that some folks seem to be worried about. I mean compared to a several day long rainstorm that a house under construction might be subjected to, the amount of water used in scenery work is minimal.  I appreciate everyone's concerns but I think I'm going to be fine as long as I'm careful.

Regards,

Michael

Michael, A.R.S. W4HIJ

 Model Rail, electronics experimenter and "mad scientist" for over 50 years.

Member of  "The Amigos" and staunch disciple of the "Wizard of Monterey"

My Pike: The Blackwater Island Logging&Mining Co.

Reply 0
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